Author Topic: America's Epistemic Crisis  (Read 2729 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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America's Epistemic Crisis
« on: November 03, 2017, 05:49:46 am »
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

This puts a name to what I have been struggling to identify.  An Epistemic Crisis.  This article is quite depressing and outlines a path to the final cracking of the liberty bell.  [metaphor]  I have predicted violence, and unfortunately this doesn't dispel my concerns.

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Offline TimG

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 06:17:42 am »
This puts a name to what I have been struggling to identify.  An Epistemic Crisis.  This article is quite depressing and outlines a path to the final cracking of the liberty bell.  [metaphor]  I have predicted violence, and unfortunately this doesn't dispel my concerns.
The article was insightful when it pointed out that the bias in mainstream media towards left wing views led to the breakdown in trust of established authorities but instead of establishing new reliable authorities the extreme right wing media descended into anarchy.  We need to get back to time when reasonable people can agree to disagree on mainstream media - i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier" - one can question immigration without being called a "racist".
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 06:25:59 am by TimG »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 07:08:41 am »
i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier" - one can question immigration without being called a "racist".

Maybe the first step is to re-establish demarcated lines of who-is-who.  Since we can't even agree on the terms rightist and leftist on here, there isn't much hope for a larger agreement.

If a random leftist calls you a racist for saying immigration levels are too high, that means zilch.  It shouldn't be so hard to come up with a definition of principles, so that centrists can start reaffirming themselves.

Offline waldo

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 07:15:29 am »
The article was insightful when it pointed out that...


The US is experiencing a deep epistemic breach, a split not just in what we value or want, but in who we trust, how we come to know things, and what we believe we know — what we believe exists, is true, has happened and is happening.

The primary source of this breach, to make a long story short, is the US conservative movement’s rejection of the mainstream institutions devoted to gathering and disseminating knowledge (journalism, science, the academy) — the ones society has appointed as referees in matters of factual dispute.
"

Offline waldo

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 07:20:50 am »
We need to get back to time when reasonable people can agree to disagree on mainstream media - i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier"

weren't you labeled a denier on MLW because you refused to accept that anthropogenic sourced CO2 is the principal causal tie to global warming/climate change... that you refused to provide your interpreted alternative (to anthropogenic sourced CO2) principal causal tie?

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 07:41:02 am »
Yeah, it seems a problem without a solution.   No doubt the frequency of "trusted institutions" being wrong has contributed to this, whether its science claiming first one thing then another, corporations allowed to put profits ahead of people, politicians saying anything to get elected, banks bailed out while people lose their homes and people with money and power able to avoid consequences of illegal and anti-social actions.  There are studies that demonstrate a real difference in the way "left" and "right"  people look at the world, and it does make some sense why the right tend to be more devastated by broken trust and more likely to cling to their "tribal" truth and reject "outsider" claims.   It"s difficult to have dialogue with someone who's response tends to be denial followed by blame and without regard to evidence.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 10:34:52 am »
weren't you labeled a denier on MLW because you refused to accept that anthropogenic sourced CO2 is the principal causal tie to global warming/climate change... that you refused to provide your interpreted alternative (to anthropogenic sourced CO2) principal causal tie?
Sounds familiar. I asked for an alternative to tax records when determining who would be affected by tax changes because Tim didn't think CRA's books were good enough. He still hasn't provided that alternative.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 11:29:28 am »
The article was insightful when it pointed out that the bias in mainstream media towards left wing views led to the breakdown in trust of established authorities but instead of establishing new reliable authorities the extreme right wing media descended into anarchy. 

Extreme right wing? I would say they established a network (FOX) which was even more biased than the mainstream media, only to the right. you can't call FOX extreme right but it's certainly enormously biased and influential. Americans who use FOX as their principle source of information get an entirely different understanding of what is going on in politics. Not a clearer understanding, but one that is completely without nuance. This helps explain Donald Trump's continued support among his 'base'. It's because his base mostly just watches FOX. And according to FOX he's doing a great job.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 11:55:57 am »
Sounds familiar. I asked for an alternative to tax records when determining who would be affected by tax changes because Tim didn't think CRA's books were good enough. He still hasn't provided that alternative.
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I explained MANY times why the CRA records do not provide the information necessary to draw the conclusion you would like. This statement is true even if there are no alternatives. That is the trouble with lefty ideologues like you. You seem to think that it is acceptable to use garbage data just because there is nothing else. Sorry, good science does not work that way. If there is no good data there  is no good data and you have to accept that. Using crap data because there is "nothing else" is nothing but an excuse for self-deception.

Same goes for the CO2 question: climate computer models are garbage and tell us nothing useful. Any conclusions drawn from climate model outputs are no better than astrological horoscopes. This is true even if there are no alternatives to climate computer models. It is sad that so many people are so ignorant of basic scientific principles.

Offline waldo

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 01:17:03 pm »
Same goes for the CO2 question: climate computer models are garbage and tell us nothing useful. Any conclusions drawn from climate model outputs are no better than astrological horoscopes. This is true even if there are no alternatives to climate computer models. It is sad that so many people are so ignorant of basic scientific principles.

you're the poster-boy for the righty/conservative epistemic 'crisis'!

as is your way, you shift away from the focal point made concerning GW/AGW... you shift to models - of course you do! In any case, your epistemic-self has been shown many times that there are an assortment of models that have performed well. You simply choose to continue to make your all-encompassing broad based statements that show, as you say, 'you're ignorant of basic scientific/modeling principles' - Sad!

Offline TimG

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 04:26:19 pm »
In any case, your epistemic-self has been shown many times that there are an assortment of models that have performed well.
ROFTL. Over the past 15 years the models have failed to predict the future over and over. To compensate for this the various activist/scientists choose to "adjust" the data until it fits the model and then claims the models "worked". Such practices don't even deserve to be called science but it is good enough to fool people driven entirely by ideology rather than science.

Offline Omni

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 04:37:08 pm »
ROFTL. Over the past 15 years the models have failed to predict the future over and over. To compensate for this the various activist/scientists choose to "adjust" the data until it fits the model and then claims the models "worked". Such practices don't even deserve to be called science but it is good enough to fool people driven entirely by ideology rather than science.

How about that ~800,000 sq.km. of missing ice in the Arctic Ocean and the formation of surface ice in the Antarctic due to increased precipitation due to increasing temperatures of both air and sea water?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 04:59:27 pm »
As with most threads where I point out 'the divide', it mostly descends into a mud fight.

The interesting part is Argus putting FOX on the dot for exacerbating the divide.  I have to say that they were only a half-step in that direction.  They are still NOT liars, just extremely biased.  So the generation that came after went farther, of course.

They even have people criticizing Trump on FOX.  So they're the end of the last generation, not the beginning of the new one.

Offline TimG

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 05:09:02 pm »
As with most threads where I point out 'the divide', it mostly descends into a mud fight.
The interesting thing in my initial post I agreed with the op and your sentiment and talked about the need to find a middle ground. I was attacked by people who are unable to take off the blinders created by their ideology.

The climate debate is a good example in the sense that climate alarmists are allowed to get away with saying ridiculous lies/half truths/exaggerations/conspiracies and the main stream media laps up because the people lying are "righteous" in their eyes. Yet when the same types of lies/half truths/exaggeration/conspiracies are peddled by Brietbart and main stream media thinks it is a big problem because the don't like the politics of liars. This hypocrisy needs to be addressed before there can be any meeting in the middle.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:18:41 pm by TimG »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 06:47:35 pm »
If Trump is truthfully shown to have colluded with Russia and broke the law, how much does it really matter if Americans believe the evidence or not?  If Trump is force to resign while under threat of impeachment just like Nixon did, then Mike Pence will just pardon Trump, just like Ford pardoned Nixon.  The game is rigged so none of the players can lose.

Reagan, a republican, was elected just 1 term after the GOP imploded because of Nixon, and Reagan became a beloved POTUS by many. Oh how short-term voter memories are.
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