Author Topic: The Islamic World  (Read 400 times)

Offline jmt18325

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The Islamic World
« on: February 02, 2017, 08:09:07 pm »
The Islamic world is something of a mystery and fascination for the west.  Islam creates many strong feelings among people as a result of recent history.  What are your feelings on the religion of peace (or do you even believe that it is)?

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Offline dia

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2017, 08:54:24 pm »
I'm not a fan of religion but I respect the right of everyone to believe how they please as long as they aren't hurting others.  Every religion fails that test at some point in time.   In Islam's case, I think ISIS and similar groups are giving that religion a bad rap; prior to the growth of these groups, Muslims and Islam were barely on the radar for most Western people, let alone an existential threat.   


“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline jmt18325

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2017, 08:56:35 pm »
What do you think it is about Islam that breeds a larger percentage of violent extremists? 

Offline dia

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2017, 09:45:04 pm »
Is there proof that Islam produces a larger percentage of violent extremists, compared to other demographics?      I tried to find out, but all I could get was that in Western countries/regions, right-wing terrorism was more prevalent and more deadly than Islamic, which suggests that a certain percentage of non-Islamic people are also prone to extremism - but who know if it's the same percentage.   

As for what I think drives extremism, I'd say it's anger and frustration with the current state of affairs, and fear for the future.   In the Middle East, I think poverty would add to that sense of anger, frustration, and fear.   

“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline Blueblood

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2017, 09:46:11 pm »
What do you think it is about Islam that breeds a larger percentage of violent extremists?

About 1000 years of back and forth with Europe till the Ottoman Empire collapsed.  It's nothing but a simple grasp for power and influence.  Since 1683 the Islamic world has been severely weakened by the west.  And then ww1 was the death blow.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2017, 10:00:56 pm »
I'm not a fan of religion but I respect the right of everyone to believe how they please as long as they aren't hurting others.  Every religion fails that test at some point in time.   In Islam's case, I think ISIS and similar groups are giving that religion a bad rap; prior to the growth of these groups, Muslims and Islam were barely on the radar for most Western people, let alone an existential threat.

You might want to read up on the battle of Tours and both battles of Vienna 1527 I believe and 1683.  It was very much an existential threat.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2017, 10:06:49 pm »
Is there proof that Islam produces a larger percentage of violent extremists, compared to other demographics?

It certainly seems that way, but I could be wrong.  I don't say that to denigrate Islam or Muslims in any way.  I'm just curious.  I understand some of the historical difficulties, but I'm wondering if there's something else.

Offline dia

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 10:35:22 pm »
You might want to read up on the battle of Tours and both battles of Vienna 1527 I believe and 1683.  It was very much an existential threat.

That could be, but I was talking about the present.   I don't see Islam as an existential threat to Canada or the States, or even Europe and Britain.    Yes, there have been some terrorist attacks in the West, but they are confining their most deadly activity to the Middle East.  People who leave the region to go to Europe or to come to North America are trying to escape war; they are not invading or waging war.    Countries who are waging war start out with military personnel, not immigrants and refugees. 

If in 10 years they've combined forces in the Middle East and started over-running nearby countries, in the manner Russia is doing right now, I'd call that a threat.   I might even call it an existential threat if it looked like they were going to succeed in Europe, and turn their attention to North America.   
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline dia

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 10:54:38 pm »
It certainly seems that way, but I could be wrong.  I don't say that to denigrate Islam or Muslims in any way.  I'm just curious.  I understand some of the historical difficulties, but I'm wondering if there's something else.

I agree its hard to know, since the media focuses so heavily on any attack involving someone who looks like they could be Muslim, and almost ignores attacks by people who don't look Muslim.   

The other day I was looking at a Pew Survey about homosexuality and it's relative acceptance around the world.  One correlation to non-acceptance of homosexuality was the degree of religiosity in the society - the more religious, the less accepting of homosexuality, regardless of religion.   There were some exceptions both ways, but it was an interesting connection.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were a similar correlation to the status of women within a society, and perhaps also to extremism, violent or not.

   
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline Blueblood

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2017, 11:00:44 pm »
You might want to read up on the battle of Tours and both battles of Vienna 1527 I believe and 1683.  It was very much an existential threat.

That could be, but I was talking about the present.   I don't see Islam as an existential threat to Canada or the States, or even Europe and Britain.    Yes, there have been some terrorist attacks in the West, but they are confining their most deadly activity to the Middle East.  People who leave the region to go to Europe or to come to North America are trying to escape war; they are not invading or waging war.    Countries who are waging war start out with military personnel, not immigrants and refugees. 

If in 10 years they've combined forces in the Middle East and started over-running nearby countries, in the manner Russia is doing right now, I'd call that a threat.   I might even call it an existential threat if it looked like they were going to succeed in Europe, and turn their attention to North America.

By keeping a lid on nutbars whatever colour or mindset they have to be makes the world a better place.

Most are fleeing a war zone and some terrorists embed themselves with the refugees for safe passage, apparently there was a gestapo agent found in the 1939 boat that got turned away.

The key with countries is to keep them as weak as possible and the USA is quite efficient at it. 

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2017, 05:38:19 am »
"The Muslim World" is such a weird term when you have places like Malaysia, Turkey, Kosovo, and Pakistan that are Muslim and have had female leaders, but then you have countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan (under the Taliban) who are completely oppressive. There's more difference between Muslim countries themselves than there is between the rest of the world and some of the more progressive ones. That's why I find that moniker, The Muslim World, so strange.

Offline dia

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2017, 07:33:38 am »
By keeping a lid on nutbars whatever colour or mindset they have to be makes the world a better place.

Call me naive, but I think eliminating situations in which nutbars can flourish is a better option than simply keeping a lid on them.  However, one calls for long-term planning, understanding what motivates nutbars and possibly even compromise; the second just takes ever bigger guns.

Most are fleeing a war zone and some terrorists embed themselves with the refugees for safe passage, apparently there was a gestapo agent found in the 1939 boat that got turned away. 
In Europe, I can see that embedding terrorists within refugees who can travel overland as a workable strategy, although I'm not sure how much evidence there is that's happening.   For countries which select refugees from camps where they've been housed for years at a time and undergo several levels of vetting, not so much.

That's interesting about the Gestapo agent.   Was he trying to escape the war, or to become more hands-on?

The key with countries is to keep them as weak as possible and the USA is quite efficient at it. 
An interesting viewpoint, certainly, and we see where that has lead us in the Middle East.  I suspect that people don't generally take kindly to being kept 'weak', and especially so when it's a foreign entity.   History does suggest it only works for a relatively short time.   On the other hand, I don't know that humans have tried any other method of 'getting along' other than war, conquering and oppression - aka keeping actual and potential opponents weak. 




“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline Blueblood

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2017, 11:59:56 am »
@dia

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/

The USA didn't want to take that risk...

As for the USA keeping believed opponents weak, they might not like it but it is keeping the USA quite powerful.  As Tyrian Lannister says "your entering the great game, and the great game is terrifying."

As with nutbars, power draws nutbars to levers of power like moths to a flame, nutbars see compromise as weakness unfortunately and it's best to keep a lid on them before problems happen.  The world learned a great deal from ww2 and that is why the USA and ussr were keeping each other in check.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 12:02:50 pm by Blueblood »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2017, 02:25:04 pm »
"The Muslim World" is such a weird term when you have places like Malaysia, Turkey, Kosovo, and Pakistan that are Muslim and have had female leaders, but then you have countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan (under the Taliban) who are completely oppressive. There's more difference between Muslim countries themselves than there is between the rest of the world and some of the more progressive ones. That's why I find that moniker, The Muslim World, so strange.

And yet there is a certain similarity in the growth of extremism and violence in all Muslim countries, and the way they actively discriminate against women and religious minorities.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Islamic World
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2017, 04:18:47 pm »
there is a certain similarity in the growth of extremism and violence in all Muslim countries
That's demonstrably untrue