Author Topic: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre  (Read 90 times)

Offline jmt18325

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Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« on: February 03, 2017, 06:46:45 pm »
Europe was gripped by fear again today thanks to an averted attack that may have been terror related.  The attacker is still alive.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-louvre-soldier-shooting-1.3965025

Is this the new reality for French/European society?

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Offline dia

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 07:10:43 pm »
Maybe.  How many is that this year already?
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 07:51:34 pm »
This year?  Not that many yet, I don't think.

Offline dia

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 08:35:41 pm »
He arrived on a tourist visa  from UAE.  I really do think short-term visas are a much more effective way for terrorists to get into a country than refugee system, or even the immigration system.   
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2017, 08:39:19 pm »
I think it's worth considering much stricter controls over countries that terrorists largely are coming from.  Bans should be out of the question though.

Offline dia

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2017, 08:46:20 pm »
Sure, that might make sense.  What kind of controls?   I wonder how long it would take a citizen of the UAE or Egypt or Syria to get a visa to Canada?   I know when I was getting visas for travel to other parts of the world, getting a visa for Canadian or British citizens took very little time.   
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2017, 08:54:56 pm »
Sure, that might make sense.  What kind of controls?

I'm thinking along the lines of tighter and more comprehensive background checks.  Of course, those may already exist.

Offline dia

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2017, 09:11:27 pm »
I think for refugees the vetting is already pretty tight.   

I checked Visa and Immigration for Canada, and residents from Afghan and Egypt have to provide biometrics.   Individuals from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Somalia only have to provide biometrics if they are between 14 and 79.    Malaysian applicants do not need to provide biometrics.   So, I guess vetting for at-risk countries is already tighter than other countries.

There's also notices all over for people affected by the States travel ban; they can come to Canada temporarily.  It seems we trust the vetting the States has already done, even if they don't.   :)
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2017, 12:38:45 pm »
I think it's worth considering much stricter controls over countries that terrorists largely are coming from.  Bans should be out of the question though.

What if they come from here? You know, when I read about all the precautions that have to be taken everywhere, from airports and airlines to art galleries and Christmas markets, I wonder how we as a society would react if instead of coming from one of the big three religions all these attacks were from one small cult. Would we ban the cult entirely?
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Offline dia

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2017, 01:28:00 pm »
What if they come from here? You know, when I read about all the precautions that have to be taken everywhere, from airports and airlines to art galleries and Christmas markets, I wonder how we as a society would react if instead of coming from one of the big three religions all these attacks were from one small cult. Would we ban the cult entirely?

That's an interesting question.   If the small cult had 10,000 members in total and 9,000 of them believed fervently in violence to achieve political ends, it would make sense to ban the entire cult.   But if only 5 of them did, would it make sense to ban the 9,995 to avoid those 5?   That's approximately the scale of the Muslim terrorists vs. Muslim non-terrorists.
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2017, 01:48:23 pm »
I think that's it exactly - it's hard to ban a religion made up of 1B mostly peaceful people ,even if we don't like the views that a majority of them have.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2017, 02:22:35 pm »
I think that's it exactly - it's hard to ban a religion made up of 1B mostly peaceful people ,even if we don't like the views that a majority of them have.

Maybe, but you know there's a reason why the police pay so much attention to black people, and it isn't because they don't like their skin pigmentation. Sure most black people are peaceable, but when a large percentage of the challenge you're faced with comes from a given community that community is going to be judged badly for it, regardless of the reasons, be they Blacks, Muslims, Natives, blondes, bald guys, or Hassidic Jews.

The suspicion directed at the Muslim community is not going to abate until it gains control of the religious leaders who sanctify violence against those who violate Islam's rules and laws. A lot of the Muslim world is made up of illiterates and very unsophisticated people, and their beliefs about what Islam stands for is coming from their religious leaders. That's particularly so of all those schools the Saudis have built across the Muslim world teaching their Wahhabi version, and all the mosques they support in exchange for them being allowed to supply the imam.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2017, 02:55:22 pm »
Maybe, but you know there's a reason why the police pay so much attention to black people, and it isn't because they don't like their skin pigmentation. Sure most black people are peaceable, but when a large percentage of the challenge you're faced with comes from a given community that community is going to be judged badly for it, regardless of the reasons, be they Blacks, Muslims, Natives, blondes, bald guys, or Hassidic Jews.

The suspicion directed at the Muslim community is not going to abate until it gains control of the religious leaders who sanctify violence against those who violate Islam's rules and laws. A lot of the Muslim world is made up of illiterates and very unsophisticated people, and their beliefs about what Islam stands for is coming from their religious leaders. That's particularly so of all those schools the Saudis have built across the Muslim world teaching their Wahhabi version, and all the mosques they support in exchange for them being allowed to supply the imam.

And you know what, I agree with you to a certain extent (though I do find the feelings uncomfortable).  I'm just not sure that a ban is all that useful or meaningful.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2017, 04:26:44 pm »
And you know what, I agree with you to a certain extent (though I do find the feelings uncomfortable).  I'm just not sure that a ban is all that useful or meaningful.

Hell, I'm not sure it's useful or meaningful either, particularly when it only involves seven countries. On the other hand, I do agree with the concept of 'severe vetting' for visitors from certain countries, and especially for immigrants and refugees coming from them. How would you vet them? Have the male immigration officer interview the wife - with no husband present. If they won't go for that then they're probably not the ones we want.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Machete Wielding Man Shot Dead Outside the Louvre
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2017, 05:08:18 pm »
I agree with extreme vetting for some sources.  I'm not sure I agree with the exact method though.