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Messages - MH

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General Discussion / Re: Gender Culture
« on: Today at 06:47:54 am »

Does that seem right to you? It doesn't seem right to me.

I think freedom of religion is an easy way to keep groups satisfied, and also keep out the spectre of government telling you what to think.  We're actually debating that now, with a UofT professor claiming that the new law forces him to use pronouns, rather than simply avoid offensive words.
I think you're well aware that the concerns of women about sharing accommodation with biologically male, self-identified women extend well beyond aesthetic quibbles.
  Yes, they extend beyond and include those quibbles also.

I'm not referring specifically to you here.  There seems to be a desire to heap scorn on anybody who isn't onboard with your "emerging view" here... you mentioned your Facebook friends "absolutely roasted" Megan Murphy for disagreeing with the PC hive-mind, for example.

Yes, the PC-hive-mind is on one side and 'TERFs' on the other, ie. trans-exclusionary radical feminists.  Both sides are dug in.

I'm skeptical that the Ivory Tower academics and ultra-progressive granola-brigade spend much time at the gym and I'm skeptical whether they actually have any skin in the game (no pun intended.)  It's easy to *say* you're in favor of something if you don't actually have to do it. 

My friends in discussion are young, gender-fluid and very open about nudism and many things.  It's a ew world.

So there are other women-only safe-spaces that they *could* attend, but they want access to this one in particular?  Perhaps that suggests that it's not simply a matter of seeking a safe space that's the motivation here.   Perhaps there is a desire to push a political agenda.   Or perhaps what they are seeking isn't a safe space, but validation... perhaps what they really want is for cisgendered women to look at their dong and still accept them as women. But that kind of validation isn't going to come from a lawsuit or a human rights committee ruling.

This is a common criticism of groups wanting equality.  The story was about a trans woman whose mate booked them a spa date, and that seems to be how it started - if that matters.

So similar question to last time... if the end result of this is that Body Blitz has to abandon their nude spa environment and adopt a clothed environment like every other women-only gym in Toronto, is that a tremendous victory for human rights?

It's not to me to say the size of the victory.  I firstly ask for dialogue, and reasonable accommodation.  Peace will be achieved through those means.  Equality will happen over a much longer timeframe.

Canadian Politics / Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« on: Today at 06:38:36 am »
Here are the demands:

I am sorry to say that I wasn't up to date on these, but then again I am not in the LGBTQ+ community, just an ally.  My feeling is that the two main paths to group conflict are violence and dialogue.  Protests are a crossroads, and if the groups want to lead to dialogue then the first step is to know the issues.

General Discussion / Re: Eating culture (or what are you eating)
« on: June 25, 2017, 03:12:37 pm »
Corn Pops, Monte Cristo Sandwich, Hummus & Crackers, Delissio Pizza.

I am so fancy.

Canadian Politics / Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« on: June 25, 2017, 03:07:49 pm »
Well, there are a lot of angry people out there.

I don't know what the list of BLM demands was, but I would wager that carding was a major problem for them.

General Discussion / Re: Gender Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 03:06:30 pm »

You seem fairly set on the idea that religious views merit consideration above and beyond what someone's personal conscience is, as a matter of law.

Yes, as I said it has to be resolved.  The case of Muslims is a whole other complexity I haven't thought about.

I wasn't discussing "protected by law".  I was scoffing at the notion that BC_C's vegetarianism, which is a matter of deeply-held conscience, is viewed as being less sincere or less worthy of respect than someone who is a vegetarian because a magic book tells them so.

You're scoffing at the constitution, but ok.

For some portion of women who this safe space has been provided for, the presence of trans people will eliminate any sense of safety.

It seems to me that characterizing objections to dongs in the locker room as "aesthetics problems for the delicate" is pretty trivializing.

Point taken, but I was speaking to the comments that people "don't feel comfortable" which to me is not a reasonable test of accommodation.  If people have trauma around seeing penises, then that is a serious matter to consider IMO.

It might not align with the view of some in the ultra-progressive and Ivory Tower world, I agree. I first off think that any woman who says she's in favor of this should get in a locker room and change while a naked male person watches her, to put her money where her mouth is.  It's really easy to *say* you're in favor with something and trivialize or insult the objections of those who don't share your view, but when rubber meets road how many of these ultra-progressives and Ivory Tower types will live up to their talk?

I addressed the trivializing point above.

You call it 'ivory tower', I call it an 'emerging view'.  I expect ultra-progressives will in fact live up to it, but the tough work is ahead in any case as this will be policy soon.
I absolutely understand that trans people are at great risk of encountering hatred and violence.  And I have no wish to contribute to someone feeling unsafe. At the same time, I won't sacrifice my own sense of security in favor of someone else's.  I believe that many women-- the silent majority, probably-- feel the same.

And as I mentioned earlier, I think that Body Blitz thinks so as well.  I think that they've taken this position not because they are hateful people, but because they know that allowing penises into their nude, women-only environment will be a grave threat to their continued financial viability. I believe that many women will not kick up a fuss over the admission of penises, but will simply decide to stop going to Body Blitz.

Hypothetically, if the human rights commission and the fair play committee and the lawyers and whoever else tell Body Blitz that they have to allow dongs in their spa, and Body Blitz ends up closing 3 months later so that nobody has this safe-space anymore, will that be a tremendous victory for human rights?

It may be that women will not visit the spa, or that the spa will change its nudist policy.  It's a tough question, but I will point out there are other women-only spas that don't have nudity which is why BodyBlitz is such a lightning rod.

Also notable that men haven't been making much noise over women-only spas lately, so some questions on human rights do get answered.

General Discussion / Re: Sex Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 01:49:43 pm »

Provincial and Local Politics / Re: Rainbow crosswalks
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:41:51 pm »
I don't have a problem with celebrating, I just think painting crosswalks is stupid.

It's a pretty basic form of celebration.  So you're ok if they put flags and banners up then ?  Fair enough.  The crosswalk think is likely a fad anyway.  One collision + one lawsuit and it will quietly go away.

General Discussion / Re: Gender Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:40:46 pm »
As far as I know of, nobody ever got violated by a beard.

But is it weird for women in general for someone with a beard, who looks like a man ?  It must be.

General Discussion / Re: Gender Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:39:50 pm »
If I don't feel comfortable with that then I must be a prude or a redneck, and if I don't think that person should actually be there then I'm a radical, apparently.

You can't control what people think, I'm afraid.  I definitely accept that my voice is marginal at best in this discussion, and I am definitely sensitive to the voices of cis women who are uncomfortable with this major change in our laws.

General Discussion / Re: Sex Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:38:20 pm »
    I almost never talk about sex in real life, other than with people I'm having sex with.

At least that's something.  Many don't even speak with their partners.

General Discussion / Re: Sex Culture
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:37:31 pm »

I mean my friends and I do discuss it in general terms but to sit there and talk about my husband's performance seems a bit high school, no?


Many men suspect that women 'talk' to each other.  It scares us.  This claim makes me feel better.

Provincial and Local Politics / Re: Rainbow crosswalks
« on: June 25, 2017, 12:36:13 pm »
My point is, how many things are you going to paint rainbow to make yourself feel good? For me, being inclusive comes out of treating everyone the same, not a paint can.

Don't you think that when previously marginalized groups are accepted, it warrants a celebration of unity ?  I do.

Provincial and Local Politics / Re: Rainbow crosswalks
« on: June 25, 2017, 10:35:42 am »
Yes, the taxpayer is likely set back hundreds of dollars for this.

Provincial and Local Politics / Re: Rainbow crosswalks
« on: June 25, 2017, 09:24:49 am »
Does trolling include making threats ?  Certainly feminists get direct threats on Twitters all the time.  The culprits are known as trolls but I don't know if threats are included in 'trolling'.

General Discussion / Re: Wonder Woman
« on: June 24, 2017, 11:49:08 pm »
And yet I provided examples of characters in "real settings" and you didn't like those examples either because of some other factor, so maybe it's not "real settings" that you're actually talking about here.

Not only real settings, no. 
And the Game of Thrones audience knows that none of the problems get an easy solution, imaginary creatures be damned. 

Ok, I'm guilty of not having watched the show so I assumed there was magic in it.

Your problem might be that you've been conditioned that if you see a castle you expect a fairy-tale ending.  We get to Winterfell and it's a dirty, dingy place full of horse manure, prostitutes, and dirty destitute peasants. It's not a Disney castle. The first time we meet Ned Stark he's executing two soldiers for desertion. He insists that he swing the blade himself, because he believes that as ruler he's accountable, and he insists that his sons watch so that they too understand.  Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Within minutes we've already been told this isn't a Disney fantasy kingdom.  10 minutes in and we're in a very different mindset from the fantasy setting you're thinking of.

I clearly don't understand the show.  Castles don't make fantasy, since castles existed in the real world.  I thought the show had dragons or something... if it's just a medieval pseudo-earth then maybe I misunderstood.
Yes, it's hilarious, but you missed Mr Brady's main point, which is for the most part a counter-argument to the idea you're proposing.

No, it's not at all.  You're acknowledging that there are modes of storytelling at play here, and that's what I'm saying too.
   But that's silly, because superficial characteristics aren't what build the connection between the audience and the character.
You're mixing up quality of story with modes of storytelling.  I empathize more with Indiana Jones than many characters in so-called serious movies.  Forest Gump for example.  That's because Raiders was better storytelling.  This may be confusing, but the type of story I'm talking about is real as well as well-told.  And I'm certainly not saying all serious-themed works are better than any fantasy.

By episode 10 the audience has seen so much violence, treachery, brutality, and ugliness that the audience is long past the notion that the dragon hatchlings are going to provide a fairy-tale resolution.

Ok, so there ARE dragons.
You can agree that great fiction needn't be set in an office building to tap universal human experiences?  Ok, then. What's "not the same experience" then?

It's like describing an experience that you have never had.  Unfortunately, I know if I watched GoT I would probably enjoy it but I would feel the same way.  Unless you somehow had the experience I'm describing from my perspective, ie. a deeply affecting experience on the level of theatre, you may not be able to understand this.

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