Canadian Politics Today
Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: guest4 on February 19, 2017, 08:55:58 am
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There was a rally on Friday to protect free speech. Free speech needed to be protected in front of a Toronto Mosque, with Muslims being told, via loudspeaker and banners, that they were terrorists, that Islam was hate and should be banned; they also attempted to stop people entering the Mosque. Police are considering whether or not the actions of the protesters are a hate crime, or part of free speech.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-investigate-anti-muslim-rally-hate-crime-1.3990044
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/anti-muslim-protest-masjid-toronto-1.3988906
So, what do you think? Should the protesters be charged with hate speech or were they well within their rights to protest in the manner they did?
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I think that they should be allowed to do what they did. That doesn't make it any less disgusting though.
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I think that they should be allowed to do what they did. That doesn't make it any less disgusting though.
I agree. Even if the police were to charge them with something, it would only give them a claim that they were 'discriminated against' in favor of "Muslims who are taking over Canada".
I looked at the group's FB page and they're all about protecting Jews from people who would harm them. Their statement of purpose includes the line - "Hatred is like cancer, the more you leave it untreated by ignoring it, the worse it gets ..." and yet they seem to think this is an effective strategy for accomplishing their goal.
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There was a rally on Friday to protect free speech. Free speech needed to be protected in front of a Toronto Mosque, with Muslims being told, via loudspeaker and banners, that they were terrorists, that Islam was hate and should be banned; they also attempted to stop people entering the Mosque. Police are considering whether or not the actions of the protesters are a hate crime, or part of free speech.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-investigate-anti-muslim-rally-hate-crime-1.3990044
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/anti-muslim-protest-masjid-toronto-1.3988906
So, what do you think? Should the protesters be charged with hate speech or were they well within their rights to protest in the manner they did?
As I always say, they have the right to make as big as fools out of themselves as they want.
However my issue with protesting in that manner is preventing other people to do things they have a right doing I.e. Going to pray at a mosque. Which makes them (the protestors) hypocrites.
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As I always say, they have the right to make as big as fools out of themselves as they want.
However my issue with protesting in that manner is preventing other people to do things they have a right doing I.e. Going to pray at a mosque. Which makes them (the protestors) hypocrites.
This was my main point on the other site. Protest is ok, preventing anyone from going somewhere is most definitely not okay.
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So, what do you think? Should the protesters be charged with hate speech
No, but I think Imam's preaching about death to Jews should be, but strangely I don't see the same concern from some for things like that.
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No, but I think Imam's preaching about death to Jews should be, but strangely I don't see the same concern from some for things like that.
I agree, Imam's should not be preaching about death to Jews, and police are investigating the two reports (http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/22/police-probe-imans-sermons), as they should.
MPs condemned those sermons, (http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/liberal-jewish-and-muslim-mps-condemn-imams-who-called-for-the-death-of-jews).
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I don't object to the idea of a motion condemning Islamophobia.
I do object to the idea of putting any sort of legal teeth behind it, however. I'd hate to see real discussion be suppressed, and I think legitimate media and politicians and legal authorities go out of their way to avoid any topic that might conceivably stir up controversy regarding Islam.
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I don't object to the idea of a motion condemning Islamophobia.
I do object to the idea of putting any sort of legal teeth behind it, however. I'd hate to see real discussion be suppressed, and I think legitimate media and politicians and legal authorities go out of their way to avoid any topic that might conceivably stir up controversy regarding Islam.
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And so far there is no attempt to put any legal teeth behind it. But a motion to recognize its existence isn't a bad idea. Lets not to be afraid to identify xenophobia.
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I don't object to the idea of a motion condemning Islamophobia.
I do object to the idea of putting any sort of legal teeth behind it, however. I'd hate to see real discussion be suppressed, and I think legitimate media and politicians and legal authorities go out of their way to avoid any topic that might conceivably stir up controversy regarding Islam.
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Maybe it's less about stirring up controversy and more about stirring up Islamaphobia?
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Maybe it's less about stirring up controversy and more about stirring up Islamaphobia?
I understand that credible news organizations feel a duty to tread lightly on hot-button issues, but there is also danger in steering too far the opposite direction.
One example: the New Years Eve debacle in Cologne. The police initially issued a glowing report about what a peaceful and well-behaved evening it had been. The mainstream media said nothing. But the story spread like wildfire on social media. Everybody in Cologne knew something had happened, and the only people talking about it were the "alt right" media. After several days of criticism for sitting on the story, the mainstream media started covering the story and issued apologies for not covering it sooner. Well, guess what... that makes the mainstream media and the police look untrustworthy.
There was a similar story out of Sweden, where the police were caught covering up sexual assaultsof teenage girls at a Stockholm music festival in 2014 and 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults) As at Cologne and other places, the victims were surrounded by groups of "recent immigrants" and molested. The police spokesman said that they decided to not make the incidents public because "it would just be fuel for the Social Democrats". The Social Democrats are Sweden's right-wing party and have campaigned that Sweden is taking in too many immigrants. Given the circumstances, maybe it would be fair to consider that the Social Democrats have a point? Regardless, once again this incident makes the police look untrustworthy. Given the circumstances, people had a right to know that girls were being molested at the music festival.
Another example, I recently saw a story involving a sexual assault by a Syrian refugee at a New Brunswick school. The story was covered by "The Rebel Media". They did their homework, obtained documents from school staff through FOI access requests, verified that there was a real incident, a real irate parent, and that the Syrian was punished with a one week suspension. http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack (http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack)
Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right. That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.
If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog! No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?
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I understand that credible news organizations feel a duty to tread lightly on hot-button issues, but there is also danger in steering too far the opposite direction.
If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog! No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?
It's not much of a secret in Ottawa who commits the lions share of street crime. But you'll never read about it in the local papers or hear it mentioned on the news. If there are swarmings the criminals are described as 'youths', and when there are shootings the only time you'd get any idea of who was involved would be if there were deaths or arrests so the names or pictures get in the paper. There were a lot of street gang shootings last year. No media mentioned any suggestion, not even a hint, that there might be any sort of commonality among the people involved. Of course, if you kept track of the dead and those arrested or wanted for murder, you soon began to see a pattern.
Certainly the Ottawa police do, which is why the usual suspects are complaining that police are stopping more Black and Arab drivers than would be statistically proper, and our mayor is busily making the rounds of ethnic activists to assure them something will be done to ensure the police aren't racists.
The media see their role very paternalistically, like teachers ensuring their students don't see what they shouldn't see, or like parents who want their children to think the right things. They don't want people talking about all the ethnics involved in crime, and maybe wondering why that is and whether our immigration system is necessarily bringing in the right people. But now and then stuff gets out, even in the major media, either by mistake or by the design of someone bucking the trend. Like the recent posting of an Ottawa police wanted poster in the paper showing 22 out of 25 wanted people were non-white, most with obviously Muslim names. Or another article in the human interest section praising those working to fundraise for a Somali youth center and pointing out how strong the need is given more than half the youths in Ottawa's detention centre were Somalis. And of course, reading all those murder reports last year it was impossible not to notice how many Muslim names were involved.
But all the media will show us is smiling immigrants cheerily waving Canadian flags...
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I understand that credible news organizations feel a duty to tread lightly on hot-button issues, but there is also danger in steering too far the opposite direction.
One example: the New Years Eve debacle in Cologne. The police initially issued a glowing report about what a peaceful and well-behaved evening it had been. The mainstream media said nothing. But the story spread like wildfire on social media. Everybody in Cologne knew something had happened, and the only people talking about it were the "alt right" media. After several days of criticism for sitting on the story, the mainstream media started covering the story and issued apologies for not covering it sooner. Well, guess what... that makes the mainstream media and the police look untrustworthy.
There was a similar story out of Sweden, where the police were caught covering up sexual assaultsof teenage girls at a Stockholm music festival in 2014 and 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults) As at Cologne and other places, the victims were surrounded by groups of "recent immigrants" and molested. The police spokesman said that they decided to not make the incidents public because "it would just be fuel for the Social Democrats". The Social Democrats are Sweden's right-wing party and have campaigned that Sweden is taking in too many immigrants. Given the circumstances, maybe it would be fair to consider that the Social Democrats have a point? Regardless, once again this incident makes the police look untrustworthy. Given the circumstances, people had a right to know that girls were being molested at the music festival.
Another example, I recently saw a story involving a sexual assault by a Syrian refugee at a New Brunswick school. The story was covered by "The Rebel Media". They did their homework, obtained documents from school staff through FOI access requests, verified that there was a real incident, a real irate parent, and that the Syrian was punished with a one week suspension. http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack (http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack)
Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right. That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.
If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog! No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?
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If I could add, unfortunately it adds credibility to the alt-right and trump for their war with "fake news". If it keeps being that one sided, then there's fuel to the fire with trumps war with the media.
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I recently saw a story involving a sexual assault by a Syrian refugee at a New Brunswick school. The story was covered by "The Rebel Media". They did their homework, obtained documents from school staff through FOI access requests, verified that there was a real incident, a real irate parent, and that the Syrian was punished with a one week suspension
Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right. That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.
Yes, sexual assault is a big problem in society
Almost one in three girls in Grade 9 stated that “someone brushed up against me in a sexual way” or “someone touched, grabbed, or pinched me in a sexual way” 54% of Canadian girls under the age of 16 have experienced some form of unwanted sexual attention. 24% have experience **** or coercive sex and 17% have experienced incest
Nobody is reporting these cases, only Goldy/Levant who have an agenda and go out and find one not because it is representative of the problem as a whole but because they want to tar and feather one segment of the population. Instead of traveling to New Brunswick, they should look in their own back yard because there are good old white boys in Alberta doing the same thing.
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So you don't feel there's any need for a discussion on whether it's appropriate for adult men to be put into the same school classes as adolescent girls, or whether a week suspension is an appropriate punishment for someone who stuffed his hand down a girls pants and squeezed her genitals?
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So you don't feel there's any need for a discussion on whether it's appropriate for adult men to be put into the same school classes as adolescent girls, or whether a week suspension is an appropriate punishment for someone who stuffed his hand down a girls pants and squeezed her genitals?
Absolutely those are valid discussions. That however is not what Goldie dear is doing.
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Absolutely those are valid discussions. That however is not what Goldie dear is doing.
I agree. And if mainstream media weren't scared to death to even touch the topic, maybe we could have that discussion.
Instead, by vacating the field and leaving it to Ezra Levant and friends, this fear-mongering alt-right spin is the only public discourse on the issue. It fuels the impression that the mainstream media is hiding things and undermines trust and feeds viewership of Ezra's crappy website.
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No, but I think Imam's preaching about death to Jews should be, but strangely I don't see the same concern from some for things like that.
Preaching about death to Jews is a direct threat of violence to a group of people. That's certainly illegal, and doesn't even need hate speech laws.
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And so far there is no attempt to put any legal teeth behind it. But a motion to recognize its existence isn't a bad idea. Lets not to be afraid to identify xenophobia.
I think "Islamophobia" is a bit of a murky word. Sometimes people use it to refer to blanket condemnation against Islam, while others use it to refer to blanket condemnation against all Muslims. That's a huge difference. One is a set of ideas (a religion), and one is a group of people. There should be nothing wrong with condemning a religion or ideology if you don't like it, but we shouldn't be using fear and hate to all people who follow it (even if it's ok to criticize those people).
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Another example, I recently saw a story involving a sexual assault by a Syrian refugee at a New Brunswick school. The story was covered by "The Rebel Media". They did their homework, obtained documents from school staff through FOI access requests, verified that there was a real incident, a real irate parent, and that the Syrian was punished with a one week suspension. http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack (http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack)
Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right. That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.
If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog! No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?
Kimmy you've hit on an extremely important subject. Yes, it's absolutely propaganda. I've thought about this myself a lot, not just in regards to syrian refugees but all issues covered in the media. They say the pen is mightier than the sword, and so the biggest war throughout history I think is the war of ideas, and news media and ALL media are important players (if not the most important) in this war. We've seen the war of ideas for a very long time, communism vs capitalism propaganda in the media since the 1800's for example. I find that virtually all news media outlets have an ideological bias that's easy to spot. Some sites are more overt in their bias of what they choose to report (ie: FOX News, The Guardian), but the most important and far more subtle bias is in what outlets choose NOT to report, like you were saying. For instance, the CBC News doesn't have a lot of op-ed reporting online compared to other outlets, but there's so many stories that may support rightwing narratives that you'll find reported on The National Post or Rebel Media (as you say) that you won't find reported on the CBC (or other left-leaning outlets). Editors and journalists, no matter how unbiased they claim to be or even honestly think they are in their reporting, virtually all have an ideological bias and agenda in their reporting. And we see this "objective reporting" thrown out the window come election time when newspapers all give their "endorsement" of their candidate of choice. Virtually all media outlets are pushing their particular ideology in their reporting and are key players in the war of ideas.
I'm not even sure if there's anything wrong with that or not, since as long as we have a large variety of news outlets with varying ideological biases then as long as we look at them all, we're able to capture a large picture of all the news happening. For instance, even though the National Post or Rebel Media are usually to the right of many of my ideological beliefs, I'll still look at them daily so that I can also find the news that the rest of the media in the country aren't reporting. The problem with news outlets becoming more extreme and entrenched in ideological reporting is that many people don't do this, and prefer to remain in their own bubble & stick with the media that confirm their own biases (both on the right or the left) and then demonize those outlets that oppose their bias. How many people on the left demonize FOX News and Breitbart, and how many ppl on the right demonize The Daily Show and the CBC?
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So you don't feel there's any need for a discussion on whether it's appropriate for adult men to be put into the same school classes as adolescent girls, or whether a week suspension is an appropriate punishment for someone who stuffed his hand down a girls pants and squeezed her genitals?
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The sad thing was there wasn't too much outrage over buddy at the west Edmonton mall doing sex acts there. I think the media felt they had to report it as it was so blatant in a public area.
I don't see any changes coming due to lack of outrage. It's funny as there is more outrage at leitch' comments then kids getting attacked.
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Yes, sexual assault is a big problem in society
Almost one in three girls in Grade 9 stated that “someone brushed up against me in a sexual way” or “someone touched, grabbed, or pinched me in a sexual way” 54% of Canadian girls under the age of 16 have experienced some form of unwanted sexual attention. 24% have experience **** or coercive sex and 17% have experienced incest
Nobody is reporting these cases,
Maybe because the figures are made up? 17% have experienced incest? How is she defining incest? If a girl's little brother peeped a her is that incest? Unwanted sexual attention? What does that even mean? The fat kid asked me out?
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I think "Islamophobia" is a bit of a murky word. Sometimes people use it to refer to blanket condemnation against Islam, while others use it to refer to blanket condemnation against all Muslims. That's a huge difference. One is a set of ideas (a religion), and one is a group of people. There should be nothing wrong with condemning a religion or ideology if you don't like it, but we shouldn't be using fear and hate to all people who follow it (even if it's ok to criticize those people).
But if you believe the ideology is wrong aren't those who follow it wrong? I've been posting on this subject for years. I normally write nothing about Muslims in Canada, as in what to do with them. I don't think that is an issue. We have freedom of religion, and people can do and wear and believe what they want. I don't wish to change that in order to put additional pressure on Muslims to reform.
That being said I believe that Islam is a dumb ideology, and I don't wish to see its adherents growing in number in Canada. I can see no logical reason why we continue to import tens of thousands of its followers every year given the economic and social arguments against doing so. Nevertheless, and despite making free use of statistics and evidence, people still refer to what I write as xenophobia and Islamophobia.
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But if you believe the ideology is wrong aren't those who follow it wrong? I've been posting on this subject for years. I normally write nothing about Muslims in Canada, as in what to do with them. I don't think that is an issue. We have freedom of religion, and people can do and wear and believe what they want. I don't wish to change that in order to put additional pressure on Muslims to reform.
That being said I believe that Islam is a dumb ideology, and I don't wish to see its adherents growing in number in Canada. I can see no logical reason why we continue to import tens of thousands of its followers every year given the economic and social arguments against doing so. Nevertheless, and despite making free use of statistics and evidence, people still refer to what I write as xenophobia and Islamophobia.
Islam is an extremely broad ideology, with infinite variants from person to person. To blanket all followers of Islam is like blanketing all followers of Christianity even though there's so many different sects with different interpretations and beliefs and each individual believer follows their religion in their own way. Like Christians, most Muslims are pretty moderate in their beliefs. They eat lots of good food with their families on their religious holidays like we do. I've met a bunch of Muslims the last few years who would become my friends. They're very normal people like you and I. They don't demand ie: gender segregation in society etc. They don't think non-believers are infidels. Some females I know don't even wear a hijab or any head-covering.
Most of them seem pretty lazy in their religious beliefs like most Christians. I'd imagine the % of Muslims that pray to Mecca 5 times a day is similar as how many Christians go to church every Sunday. Most Christians don't follow the Bible very closely in their day-to-day lives, and most Muslims don't follow the Koran very closely. And like Christians, a lot of Muslims don't believe in the crazy stuff in their holy book either. Ya there's dedicated Muslims just like there's dedicated Christians. Most non-Muslims who talk about Islam or Muslims don't even know what the hell they're talking about beyond what they read in the news.
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Islam is an extremely broad ideology, with infinite variants from person to person.
It is far more narrow than Christianity, and even the different sects don't disagree on the basics, including Sharia law.
Most of them seem pretty lazy in their religious beliefs like most Christians. I'd imagine the % of Muslims that pray to Mecca 5 times a day is similar as how many Christians go to church every Sunday. Most Christians don't follow the Bible very closely in their day-to-day lives, and most Muslims don't follow the Koran very closely. And like Christians, a lot of Muslims don't believe in the crazy stuff in their holy book either. Ya there's dedicated Muslims just like there's dedicated Christians. Most non-Muslims who talk about Islam or Muslims don't even know what the hell they're talking about beyond what they read in the news.
You are making the same mistake so many other western people make in assuming that because you have an ingrained belief in a secular society that others do too. Because you don't take religion seriously, then neither do others. The biggest clue of how wrong you are is that the number of Muslim women in Canada who wear the hijab or some other religious garment every single day of their lives everywhere they go has risen to over 60%. I put it to you that logically, if Muslims were as lackadaisical and unobservant as secular western Christians that would not be the case.
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The biggest clue of how wrong you are is that the number of Muslim women in Canada who wear the hijab or some other religious garment every single day of their lives everywhere they go has risen to over 60%.
I suggest that is the biggest clue of how wrong you are. Go out and ask those women why they wear the hijab. Is it religious compliance, is it cultural, is it fashion, or is it to identify and show their pride in their own background especially as it has come under attack from many quarters in recent years. Go to the university campuses and take a close look at those women wearing hijab's and tell me if the rest of their dress and mannerisms is in compliance with these religious teachings you often tell us about. Many of them are also wearing tight sweaters, skinny jeans, high heels, and are engaging with their fellow classmates (males as well as female) in very open manner. I would say the hijab is much more a statement of their heritage, a statement of fashion, and a statement of themselves more than it is some symbol of subservience.
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Maybe because the figures are made up? 17% have experienced incest? How is she defining incest? If a girl's little brother peeped a her is that incest? Unwanted sexual attention? What does that even mean? The fat kid asked me out?
I find it interesting that you ask these questions here, but when talking about the rampant **** problem in Sweden, you're don't even remotely ask as many questions. They're not the wrong questions. It's good that you're asking the questions. But you don't always do it and it's interesting to note when you dig deeper and when you don't.
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I suggest that is the biggest clue of how wrong you are. Go out and ask those women why they wear the hijab. Is it religious compliance, is it cultural, is it fashion, or is it to identify and show their pride in their own background especially as it has come under attack from many quarters in recent years.
It is religious. If you clam it is cultural, then it is a deliberate rejection of Canada and its culture in favour of the culture and values of the places they consider their real homes. It is a proclamation to everyone they encounter "I am not one of you. I reject you and your culture and values."
In fact it is both of those things.
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I find it interesting that you ask these questions here, but when talking about the rampant **** problem in Sweden, you're don't even remotely ask as many questions. They're not the wrong questions. It's good that you're asking the questions. But you don't always do it and it's interesting to note when you dig deeper and when you don't.
I ask the questions because the statistics do not make sense to me. On the other hand, I find absolutely nothing unlikely about the thought that a bunch of Muslim men from north africa and the middle east, upon seeing how women dress and act in Sweden, would think they are all **** and prostitutes and thus can be done with whatever the man wants.
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I don't think that's unique to Muslims.
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I don't think that's unique to Muslims.
I think that Muslim societies are fairly unique in the way they restrict women's behavior and require modesty in dress and behavior and deference to men. The prohibition on a Muslim woman even socializing with, much less touching men not in their families and what happens to those who violate such rules should give a clue as to what they think of Swedish girls
Plus they basically show up thinking all western women are **** to begin with. These are mostly not very sophisticated men here, and the mythos of western women is fairly strong where they come from.
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Plus they basically show up thinking all western women are **** to begin with.
That's what I'm saying - I don't think that's unique to Muslim men. Most men think women are ****.
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It is a proclamation to everyone they encounter "I am not one of you. I reject you and your culture and values."
So when those Greeks have their dances in fancy clothes, they are really telling other Canadians to shove it?
You need to think things through, celebrating your own heritage is not about rejecting others.
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That's what I'm saying - I don't think that's unique to Muslim men. Most men think women are ****.
Well, not me at least. You?
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Well, not me at least. You?
I don't think women are ****, unless they downright choose to be because they need to make some money. And in that case then most of us are some kind of ****,men or women.
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Well, not me at least. You?
That was the wrong thing for me to say. A lot of men think of women as sex objects. Sexual assault is apparently more common than we all think in wider society.
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Sexual assault is apparently more common than we all think in wider society.
It is. Given how many we hear about on the news, I wonder how many more we don't hear about either because the media doesn't report them, or the women don't. I hear almost weekly warnings about some man who's grabbing women on the street, or men in vehicles approaching kids. I suspect when the perpetrator is known, it doesn't make the news at all. So many people terrified of Muslims, yet it's the regular Canadian guy who is most dangerous to themselves or their female relatives and friends.
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That's what I'm saying - I don't think that's unique to Muslim men. Most men think women are ****.
Who you hanging around with, John? :o
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So when those Greeks have their dances in fancy clothes, they are really telling other Canadians to shove it?
You need to think things through, celebrating your own heritage is not about rejecting others.
Do the Greeks dress up in Greek costumes every day to go to work, school and the grocery store? The comparison is not valid.
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That was the wrong thing for me to say. A lot of men think of women as sex objects. Sexual assault is apparently more common than we all think in wider society.
Not nearly the same thing. Both our culture and Muslim culture sees women as sex objects. Our culture celebrates that (more than it should) while their culture sees it as a danger, and does its best to suppress it by swaddling them in shapeless clothes, and ensuring they are always under the direct control of their male family members.
So while a young Canadian man might see some hot teen girls in bikinis and lech at them his thoughts are not filled with the sense of contempt you'll find from a guy from North Africa. He won't assume that they're available to any man who wants them, and won't be angered and outraged that they would dare to refuse.
A **** is not the right description probably. We might call a girl a **** (she might even be one by our terms) but that does not carry with it the same sense of religious violation as in the Muslim world. We wouldn't think it is open season on her for anything we choose to do.
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It is. Given how many we hear about on the news, I wonder how many more we don't hear about either because the media doesn't report them, or the women don't. I hear almost weekly warnings about some man who's grabbing women on the street, or men in vehicles approaching kids. I suspect when the perpetrator is known, it doesn't make the news at all. So many people terrified of Muslims, yet it's the regular Canadian guy who is most dangerous to themselves or their female relatives and friends.
We have a fairly good idea of how many sexual assaults there are in the West because of all the agencies involved in combating it and the number of polls and surveys which take place. We have no idea from the Muslim world because there are few, if any agencies combating it, and the laws and police are such that sexual assaults or even **** are very unlikely to ever be reported.
We also don't break down sexual assault convictions by race. If we did we might well find, as in some European countries, like Sweden, that the numbers among immigrants from North Africa and the Middle east were many times higher than among "regular Canadian guys".
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Who you hanging around with, John? :o
You should meet my family....
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A **** is not the right description probably. We might call a girl a **** (she might even be one by our terms) but that does not carry with it the same sense of religious violation as in the Muslim world. We wouldn't think it is open season on her for anything we choose to do.
You're right - to an extent. Where you're wrong is when it comes to statistics around sexual assault. It's pretty rampant in any society where there are men.
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I don't think SirJohn has ever met a Muslim person in his life, yet talks about them as if he's some kind of authority on what they believe and what their religion means to them. It's bizarre. Especially this talk of women, when it's well documented that many of them choose to continue to wear the hijab or even begin wearing it when they're in Canada as an expression of their personal religious devotion. They actually do this in some cases because our national value of multiculturalism and pluralism makes them feel safe to do so. Many of them do this in spite of their fathers and brothers sometimes wishing that they wouldn't because they worry that it would be a negative reflection on them.
Seriously, you need to stop reading white nationalist propaganda and actually get out of the house and meet the people you've learned to hate.
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I don't think SirJohn has ever met a Muslim person in his life, yet talks about them as if he's some kind of authority on what they believe and what their religion means to them.
No he talks about what is basic, common knowledge about their societies and cultures and beliefs. I've already said my next door neighbour is a Muslim. I used to work with Muslim all the time when I was poor. At one point the city of Ottawa reached and agreement with Minto to house refugees in my building, mostly Somalis, so I used to live among them too. In fact, my riding there had the highest percentage of Muslims in Canada, and might still have for all I know.
It's bizarre. Especially this talk of women, when it's well documented that many of them choose to continue to wear the hijab or even begin wearing it when they're in Canada as an expression of their personal religious devotion.
Funny. Wasn't that what I said when Impact said it's probably just cultural? It's bizarre you didn't read that.
They actually do this in some cases because our national value of multiculturalism and pluralism makes them feel safe to do so
As opposed to Iran and Iraq and Egypt and other Muslim countries where they don't feel safe to do so? It's bizarre you would think so.
Seriously, you need to stop reading white nationalist propaganda and actually get out of the house and meet the people you've learned to hate.
Sorry, but I've never read any white nationalist propaganda. You need to crawl out from that carefully guarded safe space where you keep your mind and look around you some time. You might find that, shockinglly, I'm not aberrant in my beliefs, or the slightest bit unusual, you are. My views don't reflect 'white nationalists' but Canadians in general. Turn off the CBC and go look around. Seventy percent of Canadians liked Kellie Lietch's values test idea. Do you think they were all white nationalists or reading white nationalist web sites?
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Great discussion - lets just keep it civil.
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Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right. That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.
If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog! No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?
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https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/
What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ? According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that. Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.
What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?
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As a Jew I disagree with anyone Jews included calling all Muslims or any identified group names that incite violence and hatred against that group. I also believe we all have the right to question and challenge any or all beliefs and if someone hides behind their religion to justify their terrorist or extremist beliefs they get called out on it. There are extremist Muslims preaching terrorism and hatred then claiming it's anti Muslim to challenge them.
NO ONE should use their religion to justify hateful beliefs.
That said calling out a Mullah for what he says in a sermon may be perfectly legitimate.
I would be interested for you to pint out what words were challenged, in which context they were challenged, how they unfairly smeared all Muslims. If they did that in the name of defending Jews Rom Muslim anti Jewish hatred they clearly have enabled you with a good way to point out the defects in their exercise and defeat any benevolent motive they may gave had. It's why I reject the JDL. They engage in the very extremist exercises they preach against and it's why they are a very fringe group that has never had legitimate standing in the Jewish community and is condemned by Bhai Broth and the ADL no different than any other extremist hate groups. I appreciate you called out Islamic extremism. I call out all extremism and in this case Jewish extremism if it unfairly stereotyped all Muslims.
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As a Jew I disagree with anyone Jews included calling all Muslims or any identified group names that incite violence and hatred against that group. I also believe we all have the right to question and challenge any or all beliefs and if someone hides behind their religion to justify their terrorist or extremist beliefs they get called out on it. There are extremist Muslims preaching terrorism and hatred then claiming it's anti Muslim to challenge them.
NO ONE should use their religion to justify hateful beliefs.
That said calling out a Mullah for what he says in a sermon may be perfectly legitimate.
I agree with all of this.
I would be interested for you to pint out what words were challenged, in which context they were challenged, how they unfairly smeared all Muslims. If they did that in the name of defending Jews Rom Muslim anti Jewish hatred they clearly have enabled you with a good way to point out the defects in their exercise and defeat any benevolent motive they may gave had. It's why I reject the JDL. They engage in the very extremist exercises they preach against and it's why they are a very fringe group that has never had legitimate standing in the Jewish community and is condemned by Bhai Broth and the ADL no different than any other extremist hate groups. I appreciate you called out Islamic extremism. I call out all extremism and in this case Jewish extremism if it unfairly stereotyped all Muslims.
You seem to be referencing something else in the thread....
I posted something about Rebel Media.
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https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/
What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ? According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that. Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.
What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?
I'm certainly not surprised to find out that some wing-nut got his news from a fringe site like Rebel Media.
And I think that people have been increasingly seeking out fringe media because they no longer trust traditional media to present the whole story. Some people have begun to believe, perhaps justifiably, that mainstream media are giving a biased picture. We've discussed that in this thread, and many other times over many years.
Angertainment? I'd just call it propaganda. They're following the Fox News-Breitbart model of making money peddling propaganda to people who are thirsty to hear their biases confirmed. I doubt anybody at The Rebel gave a **** about Marissa Shen two weeks ago, but I imagine they've probably posthumously sainted her now that a Syrian refugee has been charged with her murder, because all of a sudden she's convenient to a narrative that they're eager to peddle to an audience that is just frothing at the mouth for that kind of story. Which is pretty appalling. But how different is it from the way in which Reese Fallon has been turned into a martyr for a political cause by more allegedly respectable news outlets?
-k
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1. Angertainment? I'd just call it propaganda. They're following the Fox News-Breitbart model of making money peddling propaganda to people who are thirsty to hear their biases confirmed.
2. But how different is it from the way in which Reese Fallon has been turned into a martyr for a political cause by more allegedly respectable news outlets?
-k
1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose. There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.
2. Which political cause ? Gun control ? Well, the question is whether she has been turned or whether people actually believe that gun control is the right thing to do. Rebel Media is a company, trying to get attention. I think people who are 'using' the Danforth shooting may actually be trying to improve things however misguided you think they are.
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1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose. There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.
2. Which political cause ? Gun control ? Well, the question is whether she has been turned or whether people actually believe that gun control is the right thing to do. Rebel Media is a company, trying to get attention. I think people who are 'using' the Danforth shooting may actually be trying to improve things however misguided you think they are.
1. I'm not sure anything Ezra Levant has been involved with has ever made money... from the Western Standard to Sun TV to Rebel Media. He's perpetually begging his subscribers for donations so that they can "keep fighting". The one thing all his career endeavors, from his early political aspirations to his present-day publishing efforts, have in common is a desire to promote right-wing ideology. He's an unabashed shill for right-wing parties at the federal and provincial level.
2. People who are paranoid about violent immigrants may actually want to make things better too, regardless how misguided they are.
I haven't done a count, but I am sure that there have been a lot more stories about Reese Fallon's murder than about Marissa Shen's murder. One is a political talking point, the other is just a tragedy.
In the US, the murder of Mollie Tibbetts was a national news item for weeks. Another Iowa college girl, Celia Barquin Arozamena, was just murdered... but it's not going to become a national political talking point, because this time an American has been charged with the murder.
Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters. I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on. Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments. That's where I'm heading with this.
-k
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1. I'm not sure anything Ezra Levant has been involved with has ever made money... from the Western Standard to Sun TV to Rebel Media. He's perpetually begging his subscribers for donations so that they can "keep fighting". The one thing all his career endeavors, from his early political aspirations to his present-day publishing efforts, have in common is a desire to promote right-wing ideology. He's an unabashed shill for right-wing parties at the federal and provincial level.
I think he's making money now.
2. People who are paranoid about violent immigrants may actually want to make things better too, regardless how misguided they are.
Rebel Media does not want to solve problems, they want to make them and profit off it. The paranoid and the extremely paranoid are wrong - the end. We waste our political capital pandering to those ridiculous arguments. If we want to have an argument about immigration then let's have one and move on. There are other matters that need oxygen and we never discuss things like:
- Democratic reform
- Improving services
- Reducing costs
I haven't done a count, but I am sure that there have been a lot more stories about Reese Fallon's murder than about Marissa Shen's murder. One is a political talking point, the other is just a tragedy.
I have heard more about Shen in my newsfeed. My newsfeed is 90% downtown Toronto Liberals and they aren't talking about Reese Fallon.
In the US, the murder of Mollie Tibbetts was a national news item for weeks. Another Iowa college girl, Celia Barquin Arozamena, was just murdered... but it's not going to become a national political talking point, because this time an American has been charged with the murder.
Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters. I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on. Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments. That's where I'm heading with this.
-k
I don't think any one single murder should make the national news unless there's something remarkable about it. A Mexican killing someone... who cares. Americans kill each other for sport and swear at you if you point it out.
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https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/
What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ? According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that. Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.
What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?
You have to take stories from Rebel Media with a grain of salt, because they spin things. But i still agree with Kimmy that they report stories sometimes that most of the MSM won't, thing many people would probably be interested to read and things we deserve to know.
Not saying Rebel Media is a wonderful news outlet, but they have their place, and I'd rather have them around than not. If some dude gets super angry over certain issues and kills people via hate crime and was a reader of the Rebel, that's not the Rebel's fault, that's all on the killer. As long as The Rebel isn't calling for violence themselves they aren't responsible in any way.
I have a friend who works quite high up with CBSA. A while ago they told me they had (allegedly) arrested a Syrian who had **** a woman in Canada, and it was all hush-hush so the media wouldn't get a hold of it because of the obvious firestorm it would cause. I never heard about anything like that in the news so I guess it worked.
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1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose. There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.
Why can't propaganda make money? I don't think Ezra is in it for the money, he's a crusader, & he has a business model for something he seems to truly believe in and there's a market amongst people who believe the same things he does.
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Why can't propaganda make money?
It can. Just ask the owner of FOX news. Ask Breitbart or Alex Jones.
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Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters. I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on. Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments. That's where I'm heading with this.
All media outlets have bias. It's impossible to get away from it. Some are just worse than other I think, some meddle a narrative to convince people of a certain view, while some at least try to be more objective even if unconscious bias makes that hard or impossible.
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Why can't propaganda make money?
I supposed it could but its purpose is to spread a message first and foremost, apart from concerns about profitability. The Soviet Union funded street newspapers in America that were neither profitable nor good propaganda.
I don't think Ezra is in it for the money, he's a crusader, & he has a business model for something he seems to truly believe in and there's a market amongst people who believe the same things he does.
COUGH... he is well documented as pretty much scamming people with his site... raising money through donations because the commies and Islams are comin'
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I suppose it could but its purpose is to spread a message first and foremost, apart from concerns about profitability. The Soviet Union funded street newspapers in America that were neither profitable nor good propaganda.
COUGH... he is well documented as pretty much scamming people with his site... raising money through donations because the commies and Islams are comin'
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It can. Just ask the owner of FOX news. Ask Breitbart or Alex Jones.
They are money makers and good at it. They may believe in the **** they sell but it's still a money operation.
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I supposed it could but its purpose is to spread a message first and foremost, apart from concerns about profitability. The Soviet Union funded street newspapers in America that were neither profitable nor good propaganda.
Well yes that's more blatant propaganda.
COUGH... he is well documented as pretty much scamming people with his site... raising money through donations because the commies and Islams are comin'
Well from what i've seen he asks for money usually because he has people suing him or he's suing someone else or somebody somewhere for some conservative cause is in some kind of lawsuit. If you want to fight this injustice, donate today! Guess someone's gotta pay his lawyer bills lol.
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What's your prime objective ? Money or message... pick one.
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Why can't propaganda make money? I don't think Ezra is in it for the money, he's a crusader, & he has a business model for something he seems to truly believe in and there's a market amongst people who believe the same things he does.
Not in it for the money? cough, cough. The people who are gullible enough to believe him are in all likelihood similar to those who believe Trump.