Canadian Politics Today

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 02:15:34 pm


Title: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 02:15:34 pm
http://www.blogto.com/city/2017/02/black-lives-matter-toronto-trudeau-white-supremacist/

"When Justin Trudeau says that he is a liar," she says, "he is a hypocrite, he is a white supremacist terrorist."

This is the organization that represents the black community in Toronto?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 06, 2017, 02:16:19 pm
Someone needs to let this person know that words have meaning
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 06, 2017, 02:28:10 pm
http://www.blogto.com/city/2017/02/black-lives-matter-toronto-trudeau-white-supremacist/

"When Justin Trudeau says that he is a liar," she says, "he is a hypocrite, he is a white supremacist terrorist."

This is the organization that represents the black community in Toronto?

This is also the same individual who tweeted a prayer to Allah, to "give me the strength not to cuzz/kill these white men and white folks today"
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 06, 2017, 02:36:44 pm
This is also the same individual who tweeted a prayer to Allah, to "give me the strength not to cuzz/kill these white men and white folks today"
The biggest racists and bigots in society today are groups like BLM. The irony would be amusing if it was not so sad.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 06, 2017, 04:00:35 pm
The biggest racists and bigots in society today are groups like BLM. The irony would be amusing if it was not so sad.

Please! Don't you realize there are no Black racists!?  :-X
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 06, 2017, 04:15:45 pm
Yes. I'm sure white people are feeling all sorts of oppressed today.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 04:21:21 pm
By one definition, racist is the wrong word.  Prejudice is a more appropriate term.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 06, 2017, 04:28:57 pm
Being an idiot is the word.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 04:39:48 pm
Well, that's definitely true of this particular individual.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: kimmy on February 06, 2017, 08:15:13 pm
She's not just  a garden variety idiot, she's also a genuine black supremacist:

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Forxyj5i.jpg&hash=e883ebb5408ad20340e042a1ba28fe8c01f47b9a)

http://www.genuinewitty.com/2016/04/10/blmto-unmasked-pt-i-yusra-khogali-is-worse-than-jerry-agar-exposed-her-to-be/

 -k
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 08:17:31 pm
BLACK POWER!!!!!

Sorry, I got a bit excited by all of that.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 06, 2017, 09:06:01 pm
By one definition, racist is the wrong word.  Prejudice is a more appropriate term.
Well that definition is not any dictionary that I use. Racist means race based prejudice. I really don't care that some political activists want to redefine the word so they don't need to admit that they are racists.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 09:11:23 pm
I get where you're coming from Tim, I really do.  I just want to avoid getting into a debate over terms if possible in this case.  I've argued the exact same position as you, and I know how drawn out it can be (it would be great for post count though :P)  I think we all agree that she exhibits a disgusting prejudice towards people of different skin pigmentation.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 06, 2017, 10:53:06 pm
She's not anti-white supremacist, she's anti-white.  She's what happens when resentment turns into hatred.  She is a hypocrite.  I support BLM but not her comments.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: guest7 on February 06, 2017, 10:57:55 pm
But she's so persuasive.. .
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 06, 2017, 11:02:15 pm
But she's so persuasive.. .

LOL.  Well what actually scares me is that there's other young minorities in Canada that think and feel this way, and agree with her. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: guest7 on February 06, 2017, 11:24:50 pm
Actually, it's quite encouraging to know that she doesn't hate me for what my ancestors might have done to her ancestors, but rather, because I'm sub human. 

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 08:20:23 am
She's not just  a garden variety idiot, she's also a genuine black supremacist:

 -k
Of course she is. You know who else was a black supremacist? Malcolm X. There's an argument to be made that MLK could only preach peace because the alternative was a black panther movement that was threatening violence. That peace became an option because the United States government's choice were that or violent chaos. While I think this woman is an idiot, radicals like her are important to give credibility to more moderate advocates on her side.

More importantly, I think it's important to see why she would be radicalized. She's looking at a society that has shown systematically that black people's lives are worth a hell of a lot less than white people's. I know there's a lot of conservative snowflakes who don't like to recognize that fact and that in and of itself denies the violence and death that have been brought down upon black people literally by government agencies. Violence and death, mind you, that is not experienced by white people. I don't have to worry about getting shot by a cop for complying with them. We have numerous incidents on video where black people, despite trying to comply, are still beaten or even murdered by police.

So yeah. She's a radical and is using extreme language and frankly I think some of the things she says are idiotic. However, she doesn't exist in a vacuum. Her views are in direct opposition to a society that she sees is gravely threatening to her and people like her. It's a violent reaction to violence perpetrated against her and her community.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: msj on February 07, 2017, 08:58:26 am
Ha! Nice CC.

I have seen people use such logic to justify the infliction of Trump upon us: he's just a reflection of white trash angst, the "front row kids" should pay more attention to the back row kids etc etc....

Its a BS way to justify the unjustifable. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 09:11:20 am
You're calling it justification, not me. It's an explanation. You're also comparing "angst" to empirically observable systematic violence against black people.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: msj on February 07, 2017, 09:14:55 am
But what they feel is real, man!  ;D
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 09:19:18 am
That's a whole other issue. Jobs are gone. They are worried about their livelihood. But the fact that they believe black people and immigrants are "skipping the line" so to speak, is another symptom of a racist society.

The jobs aren't coming back and it's not black people and immigrants who took them. They're gone and it's capitalists who offshored them, just like their bank accounts so they don't have to pay for the government services necessary to help those people they **** by offshoring their jobs.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 07, 2017, 09:42:32 am
She's looking at a society that has shown systematically that black people's lives are worth a hell of a lot less than white people's.
This is an "alternative fact" and you know it. Statistics show there are some issues in some counties in the US but there is nothing equivalent going on in Canada. Try making a list of the last 20 shootings by police in Canada and you will find that the overwhelming majority were white.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 09:58:48 am
They're standing in solidarity with people in the United States and there is an extensive history of violence by the RCMP that continues to this day against indigenous peoples. Black people were also discriminated against in Toronto through carding and there's a history of Toronto police harassing the LGBT community. Black people are also treated differently by our courts, just as they are all across the United States, contrary to your "some counties" dismissiveness.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 11:21:44 am
More importantly, I think it's important to see why she would be radicalized. She's looking at a society that has shown systematically that black people's lives are worth a hell of a lot less than white people's.

Facts not in evidence.

 
Quote
I know there's a lot of conservative snowflakes who don't like to recognize that fact and that in and of itself denies the violence and death that have been brought down upon black people literally by government agencies.

Dwelling on past injustices, real or imagined, does not excuse the misbehavior and racism of this young woman who never experienced any of them.

Quote
I don't have to worry about getting shot by a cop for complying with them.

And yet there have been numerous instances, some captured on video, of unarmed white men shot and killed by police for not complying with them.


Quote
We have numerous incidents on video where black people, despite trying to comply, are still beaten or even murdered by police.

I can think of perhaps one non-criminal killed. And even that's uncertain, since if the person who told the cop he had a gun and then reached for something had been white he very well might have been shot, too.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 11:23:44 am
She's not anti-white supremacist, she's anti-white.  She's what happens when resentment turns into hatred.  She is a hypocrite.  I support BLM but not her comments.

Why do you support them? I mean, especially given this is largely an imported issue from the US?

I believe there are too many police shootings, especially of people with emotional/psychological issues, but that does not seem to be related to race so much as poor police training.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 01:10:41 pm
Facts not in evidence.

 
Dwelling on past injustices, real or imagined, does not excuse the misbehavior and racism of this young woman who never experienced any of them.

And yet there have been numerous instances, some captured on video, of unarmed white men shot and killed by police for not complying with them.


I can think of perhaps one non-criminal killed. And even that's uncertain, since if the person who told the cop he had a gun and then reached for something had been white he very well might have been shot, too.
Good thing there's white people like you to ignore the evidence that's all over the place for you to see and to tell people what they've experienced. I'm sure they'll be happy to know that the disadvantaged position they've been in has had no generational effects whatsoever because some dude on the internet says so. It's especially a good thing too that you know all of this when StatsCan doesn't gather racial demographics and we have to rely on independent research from our universities.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2017, 01:13:27 pm
She's not just  a garden variety idiot, she's also a genuine black supremacist:



She uses the same sort of logic and arguments as white supremacists. So ya.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 01:39:28 pm
Facts not in evidence.
Let's take this a step further. You say there's no evidence, yet publications from our own government researchers debunks your claim.

Quote
Substantial evidence is now available to indicate that the Canadian labour market provides lower economic returns to visible minorities (Li, 1988, 1992b, 1997). Women of colour, in particular, suffer severe market disadvantage. For example, data from the 1986 Census indicate that visible minority women earned about 49 percent of what white men made in the labour market, while visible minority men earned about 80 percent (Li, 1992b: 497). Data from the 1991 Census further show that visible minorities earned substantially less than white Canadians even after differences in human capital and other factors have been taken into account (Li, 1997, 1998b; Pendakur & Pendakur, 1996).

How many black people are killed by Toronto police? We have no god damned clue, but the black community is completely distrustful of them.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/08/16/how-many-black-men-have-been-killed-by-toronto-police-we-cant-know.html

Quote
Police civilian watchdog will not release data on the race of those killed by Toronto police — because it doesn’t collect it. Neither does Stats Canada, the Office of the Independent Police Review Director or police themselves.

You say they don't experience this in Canada? You're blind. Black Lives Matter TO is a reaction to violence against their community and the systematic racial discrimination they face.

Ignore it all you want and simply remain ignorant to the problems they face. You've got that privilege as a white upper class retired management level bureaucrat. I expect you to continue blaming the victims instead of listening to them because whenever someone who isn't white claims something, you consistently claim to know better...even when it comes to their own experiences. You need to stfu sometimes and put your listening ears on instead of thinking you know everything.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 04:01:30 pm
Good thing there's white people like you to ignore the evidence that's all over the place for you to see and to tell people what they've experienced. I'm sure they'll be happy to know that the disadvantaged position they've been in has had no generational effects whatsoever because some dude on the internet says so. It's especially a good thing too that you know all of this when StatsCan doesn't gather racial demographics and we have to rely on independent research from our universities.

You're welcome. You have a lot to learn from me.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 04:02:01 pm
You're calling it justification, not me. It's an explanation. You're also comparing "angst" to empirically observable systematic violence against black people.

Not in evidence.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 04:11:05 pm
Let's take this a step further. You say there's no evidence, yet publications from our own government researchers debunks your claim.

I have not seen any such facts.
That visible minorities would earn less than white Canadians would be self-evident logic given the majority of the former are immigrants from third world countries with poor communications skills.

Quote
How many black people are killed by Toronto police? We have no god damned clue, but the black community is completely distrustful of them.

We do know, however, that most of the violent crime in Toronto is coming from the Black community, from Black street gangs in particular. And while we don't keep statistics the continual black faces on the news every time there's a murder or serious criminal offense would seem to indicate the likelihood that there would be numerous unfriendly interactions between police and members of the Black community.

As I've said before, the statistically greater level of violent interaction between the Black community and police, both here and the US, is due to the statistically greater percentage of the Black community who are criminals. Don't be a criminal, and you should be fine.

I do acknowledge that young black males are stopped and checked by police much more often than young white/yellow/brown males. But that is a police response to the high criminality rate of young Black males in general. I'm sure it's a PITA to honest Black men, but I don't know what we can do about unless we want the police to back off and leave them alone - as they did in Chicago.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 09, 2017, 11:49:23 pm
Of course she is. You know who else was a black supremacist? Malcolm X. There's an argument to be made that MLK could only preach peace because the alternative was a black panther movement that was threatening violence. That peace became an option because the United States government's choice were that or violent chaos. While I think this woman is an idiot, radicals like her are important to give credibility to more moderate advocates on her side.

More importantly, I think it's important to see why she would be radicalized. She's looking at a society that has shown systematically that black people's lives are worth a hell of a lot less than white people's. I know there's a lot of conservative snowflakes who don't like to recognize that fact and that in and of itself denies the violence and death that have been brought down upon black people literally by government agencies. Violence and death, mind you, that is not experienced by white people. I don't have to worry about getting shot by a cop for complying with them. We have numerous incidents on video where black people, despite trying to comply, are still beaten or even murdered by police.

So yeah. She's a radical and is using extreme language and frankly I think some of the things she says are idiotic. However, she doesn't exist in a vacuum. Her views are in direct opposition to a society that she sees is gravely threatening to her and people like her. It's a violent reaction to violence perpetrated against her and her community.

I respect this woman's anger at systemic racism by white ppl. But there is no excuse for this.  This isn't anger, it's hatred.  I support her fight and BLM's fight, but she needs to check herself before she wrecks herself.  I hope she's able to rid her heart of this hate and wish her the best.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2017, 07:26:23 am
This isn't anger, it's hatred.
Of course it's hatred. Why wouldn't she hate her oppressors? Malcolm X was a black supremacist and he went down in history as a monumental figure in the black rights movement.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 10, 2017, 08:27:54 am
Of course it's hatred. Why wouldn't she hate her oppressors? Malcolm X was a black supremacist and he went down in history as a monumental figure in the black rights movement.
Except there are no oppressors in this day and age. It is nothing but of figment of her imagination.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2017, 08:36:01 am
Except there are no oppressors in this day and age. It is nothing but of figment of her imagination.
Except you're wrong, but whatever.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 10, 2017, 08:50:27 am
Except you're wrong, but whatever.
No I am not. Blowhards like this woman need to great villains to explain their own shortcomings so they create mythical constructs like 'systematic racism'.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2017, 09:56:51 am
Insulting her is a strong sign of just how weak your position is. Maybe you can look into setting up a safe space so black rights activists don't trigger you.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 10, 2017, 09:58:40 am
Lets keep it friendly gentlemen.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 10, 2017, 11:23:43 am
Insulting her is a strong sign of just how weak your position is. Maybe you can look into setting up a safe space so black rights activists don't trigger you.
You called her an "idiot" so get down off your high horse. In Canadian society to is it simply not credible to claim that any "systematic racism" exists. There are obviously individuals who say racist things (like this woman), however, there is nothing in our institutions that discriminates based on race (other than special rights given to aboriginals but that is another topic).

The one issue where I have some sympathy for is the fact that the disproportionate involvement in crime by blacks means that the police disproportionately question blacks when investigating crimes. This is obviously a concern to the majority of law abiding blacks and there is a need better police training when it comes to this problem. That said, I don't see this issue as sufficient to support a claim that "systematic racism" exists because it is a rational response to the proportion of crimes committed by blacks.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: kimmy on February 11, 2017, 05:24:15 am
Of course it's hatred. Why wouldn't she hate her oppressors? Malcolm X was a black supremacist and he went down in history as a monumental figure in the black rights movement.

I can understand why black people would harbor anger or hatred toward white people.  But I think that if she's going to post black supremacist material, like her post on the magical power of melanin, it damages the credibility of her group.

You wrote earlier that the fringe (Black Panther movement) helped legitimize the moderate voice (MLK Jr) as the mainstream.  But I thought BLM was supposed to be the mainstream voice.  If BLM Toronto is the fringe and not the mainstream, then Pride Toronto shouldn't be caving to BLM demands like excluding police from Pride events.

 -k
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 10:37:12 am
I can understand why black people would harbor anger or hatred toward white people.  But I think that if she's going to post black supremacist material, like her post on the magical power of melanin, it damages the credibility of her group.
Of course it does. There's been calls for her to resign for the benefit of BLM. In other words, she's making it a radical group and many people disagree with that. But radicalism is nothing new. Hell, the first nations could benefit for more radical demonstrations.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 11, 2017, 12:42:24 pm
Of course it does. There's been calls for her to resign for the benefit of BLM. In other words, she's making it a radical group and many people disagree with that. But radicalism is nothing new. Hell, the first nations could benefit for more radical demonstrations.

Being radical helps nobody.  It's why a lot of people don't take the tea party seriously and partly a reason why Hilary lost the election.  It's also why a lot of people are now getting tired with a lot of First Nations being obstructionist out of spite which is not allowing projects to get done.  Being radical and unreasonable does nothing to help their cause.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 12:50:24 pm
It's why a lot of people don't take the tea party seriously
People don't take the Tea Party seriously because a bunch of white Christians whining about oppression look like even bigger idiots than this BLM person.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 11, 2017, 03:45:29 pm
People don't take the Tea Party seriously because a bunch of white Christians whining about oppression look like even bigger idiots than this BLM person.

Precisely, it's whining about oppression when there is no actual law oppressing people, that being said they may have a point with affirmative action laws on the books.   At least the tea party was able to get into office and fight from within.  Yet Enough people took the tea party seriously to give them seats.

A big part of why trump won is because many leftists would shout racist, sexist, bigot, or homophobe too many times without evidence in order to shut down debate that enough people got tired of it.  In the 1960s that was a valid point as there were actual laws on the books oppressing people and the movement eventually got those laws struck down.  Now people are shouting racism at "the man", shouting racism at phantoms is one way to set someone up for failure as there is nothing concrete to fight.  For fights against racism to be successful there needs to be something concrete.  Suggesting all republicans are like David duke is ridiculous and takes away credibility.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 07:15:05 pm
I find your criteria that there needs to be a discriminatory law on the books for there to be oppression extremely odd.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 07:15:53 pm
It's like saying, "and then Lincoln freed the slaves and everyone was free."
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 12, 2017, 11:39:14 am
I find your criteria that there needs to be a discriminatory law on the books for there to be oppression extremely odd.

What oppression do you imagine she suffered under? Some people not liking her because she was Black? Some people don't like fat people. Are they oppressed? Skinny people with glasses get bullied. Are they oppressed? Teenagers with zits get treated badly. Are they oppressed? Who is more likely to be hired for a job, all skills being even, this girl, or a fat, ugly guy with glasses and acne? What does oppression even mean if it's not government laws?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 12, 2017, 05:35:38 pm
It means having less opportunities because of the colour of your skin or the origins of your family name. Something a great many people never even have to dream of experiencing. It also means getting treated more harshly for the same crimes, being more likely to be stopped by the police for the same activities, being more likely to be assaulted and manhandled by the cops for doing the same things, all because of the colour of your skin or the tone of your accent. In the not so distant past and it still happens today, it means being denied an apartment or a loan because of your skin colour or family name. These are things that white people, particularly with anglo names, have the great privilege of not experiencing.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 12, 2017, 06:35:38 pm
It means having less opportunities because of the colour of your skin or the origins of your family name. Something a great many people never even have to dream of experiencing. It also means getting treated more harshly for the same crimes, being more likely to be stopped by the police for the same activities, being more likely to be assaulted and manhandled by the cops for doing the same things, all because of the colour of your skin or the tone of your accent. In the not so distant past and it still happens today, it means being denied an apartment or a loan because of your skin colour or family name. These are things that white people, particularly with anglo names, have the great privilege of not experiencing.
You love to mix the completely BS in with the reasonable statement in the hope that the crap you make up will be taken more seriously. From what I have read there is an issue with black crime and innocent blacks find themselves subject to harsher police tactics. This is an issue that needs addressing but it has nothing to do with opportunities.

The anglo name stuff is based on a study with resumes which had nothing to do with skin colour and everything  to do with perceived English speaking ability. And whether you like or not people with better English skills have an advantage in a society where English is the primary language. It is unreasonable to expect otherwise. More importantly, the "privilege" myth that you keep harping on is not about English ability but melanin count so language related discrimination is immaterial.

Lastly, opportunities are primarily a function of family wealth. Poor white folks have as much trouble as poor non-white folks. Rich immigrants do much better - especially if they are English speaking. Any correlation with melanin count and opportunities is a reflection of the different economic status of immigrants  from different parts of the world.

 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 12, 2017, 09:18:59 pm
You love to mix the completely BS in with the reasonable statement in the hope that the crap you make up will be taken more seriously. From what I have read there is an issue with black crime and innocent blacks find themselves subject to harsher police tactics. This is an issue that needs addressing but it has nothing to do with opportunities.

The anglo name stuff is based on a study with resumes which had nothing to do with skin colour and everything  to do with perceived English speaking ability. And whether you like or not people with better English skills have an advantage in a society where English is the primary language. It is unreasonable to expect otherwise. More importantly, the "privilege" myth that you keep harping on is not about English ability but melanin count so language related discrimination is immaterial.

Lastly, opportunities are primarily a function of family wealth. Poor white folks have as much trouble as poor non-white folks. Rich immigrants do much better - especially if they are English speaking. Any correlation with melanin count and opportunities is a reflection of the different economic status of immigrants  from different parts of the world.

 

It's called privilege of good decisions.  I would bet that if you are a white guy dressed like a biker or rolling around in a white muscle shirt looking like trash the cops aren't going to be taking you to seriously.  Likewise a person of colour who is well dressed, calm, and polite will be taken more seriously, that's just life and it applies to more than just dealings with the police, such as job interviews.

If people make good decisions they get rewarded, if their parents make good decisions and their kids make good decisions, then the kid has an advantage.  It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 13, 2017, 11:00:41 am
It means having less opportunities because of the colour of your skin or the origins of your family name. Something a great many people never even have to dream of experiencing.

When I was young, I found my opportunities limited simply because my family wasn't upper middle class with all kinds of friends and connections. I used to scan the newspapers looking for jobs I could apply for. I didn't realize, back then, that only a tiny fraction of job opportunities ever got advertised. Most went to friends of friends.

As for those that WERE advertised, I wasn't able to apply for most of them because they required bilingualism, something I didn't have.

So in that respect my opportunities were much lower than a lot of other people. I don't think that made me oppressed though. I don't think that word really has any meaning in Canada compared to the reality of the world.

Quote
It also means getting treated more harshly for the same crimes, being more likely to be stopped by the police for the same activities, being more likely to be assaulted and manhandled by the cops for doing the same things, all because of the colour of your skin or the tone of your accent.

The socioeconomic reasons for Black crime are many, and need not be gone into here, but we both know the reason police stop young lack men more often than young Asian men is because of the degree of street crime, particularly violent street crime committed by the former. I don't think the justice system treats people differently based on their skin colour but based on their economic and family history. An young Asian man getting good marks at school, with a solid, middle class family to support him, and no previous record is going to be treated better than a young Black man from a single parent family living in subsidized housing who dropped out of school.

As for the unfriendly nature of Black interactions with police. A friend was remarking just yesterday evening, as we watched a video of a black teenager being arrested for jaywalking, that so many of these videos seem to be so similar. A relatively minor interaction explodes into something more violent because the Black person, man or woman, being questioned, is hostile, refuses to cooperate, and physically resists orders.

The one time I was stopped as a young man by police wanting to know what I was doing in that alley I'd come out of at 2AM I stopped, answered his questions politely, and he moved on. I would suggest if I instead responded by telling him to go and F*ck himself, and it was none of his damn business and turned to walk away, I would have found myself arrested, regardless of my ivory skin.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2017, 11:19:04 pm
So in that respect my opportunities were much lower than a lot of other people. I don't think that made me oppressed though. I don't think that word really has any meaning in Canada compared to the reality of the world.

I am somewhat in the same situation. I think I have done reasonably well for myself. I don't have a college degree, and I haven't benefited from family connections, but I have managed to obtain full time work, a home, a car, and relatively stable finances.  I still don't know whether it's a result of privilege, or dumb luck, or hard work, or (most likely) a combination of all of the above.

Under the "privilege" heading:

 -I have benefited from competent parenting.  Mom is an abusive alcoholic, but dad is a level-headed person who taught me innumerable, immeasurably important things about how good people conduct themselves.   I have no idea where I would have ended up if I didn't have someone like him to teach me.

 -I am moderately good-looking, and can wear a tank-top and tight pants or short skirt, or a Little Black Dress.  At this point in my life, that's not super-important, but when I was younger it meant a lot.  When I first arrived in Kim City, it took me about 2 hours to find work.  When I was younger, I was able to graduate from the crappy, low-paying work of fast-food, retail, and family restaurants, to working in bars and making a lot more money, while my friends were still in crappy low-paying jobs.

In high school I used to take the same bus home as a couple of girls from a nearby college. They were both very attractive, one was white, the other black, and they seemed to be inseparable besties, and I sometimes listened in on their conversations. One day White Girl was bemoaning her failure to land a summer job... Black Girl laughed and said "You're white. Go work at Earl's." They both laughed, but I knew there was an element of truth to what she said, and I put it into action later when I was old enough.

Meanwhile, under the "hard work" heading:

 -I think I got ahead at least partly through aptitude and hard work. I started with my employer as a casual laborer, and advanced mostly just by being more reliable and more productive than the other casuals, and the owner took notice.  But the thing that always gets me is... would the owner have taken the same notice if I was male? ...aboriginal?  I'm not the only hard-working casual who ever worked for them... but the others didn't come in such an adorable package.  I have a hunch that if I was male or unattractive, the owner might not have taken the same interest in my abilities.




The one time I was stopped as a young man by police wanting to know what I was doing in that alley I'd come out of at 2AM I stopped, answered his questions politely, and he moved on. I would suggest if I instead responded by telling him to go and F*ck himself, and it was none of his damn business and turned to walk away, I would have found myself arrested, regardless of my ivory skin.

I have said this a number of times before in previous discussions, but I think the race aspect of police misconduct is overblown... the real issue is, I think, class.  I mean, obviously race is significantly intertwined with that as well, as poor-people are disproportionately non-white, and there's a tendency to suspect that if a black person has the trappings of success it was paid for by crime. Black guy driving a BMW... probably a drug-dealer, right?

But I live in one of the whitest communities in Canada... and the police treat people like crap here too. They don't treat me like crap, because I look like a completely non-threatening, upstanding citizen. But the streets are full of homeless people and hobos and panhandlers, and most of them are white or aboriginal, and the RCMP make sure to harass and intimidate and bully them as much as legally possible, white or not.  If you look like you might be a drug-user or a criminal, the police are going to get up in your business. In some places, being black might be all it takes for the police to decide you look like a drug-user or a criminal. But here, most of the people who "fit the profile" are actually white, and the police don't give them a pass because of their skin color.

 -k
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 10:31:14 am
You guys misunderstand privilege. The fact that you don't have to worry about your name or skin colour holding you back from getting a job, loan, or place to live is a privilege that many don't have. Worse still it's a privilege not to be profiled and harassed by the police every time you step into public. Those are the privileges we're talking about when we say "privilege." Connections and other kinds of capital like that are also privileges, but well beyond everything else and completely unreachable for people who are born into families where their parents were completely held back and couldn't build social, cultural, or material capital to pass on to their kids.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 10:52:09 am
You guys misunderstand privilege. The fact that you don't have to worry about your name or skin colour holding you back from getting a job, loan, or place to live is a privilege that many don't have. Worse still it's a privilege not to be profiled and harassed by the police every time you step into public. Those are the privileges we're talking about when we say "privilege." Connections and other kinds of capital like that are also privileges, but well beyond everything else and completely unreachable for people who are born into families where their parents were completely held back and couldn't build social, cultural, or material capital to pass on to their kids.

Do they actually get held back?  It's almost impossible to quantify that.  On top of it the government has affirmative action programs in place extending a privelege in itself.  It's privelege of making good decisions and from what I've seen people who dress well, act respectful, and have their ducks in a row generally do well and or improve their lot in life.  You can't jump to conclusions and toss around privelege as an explanation without seeing the totality of the circumstances.  Bad decisions also lead to an eventual loss of good decision priveleges.  A white person who decides to go on the prescription drug rabbit hole is going to end up having less priveleges than a non white person who makes good decisions.

Almost every person white or non-white over time came to Canada with very little if anything and its up to them to make good decisions to gain themselves priveleges and to pass those on to their children.

Racism and prejudice are wrong, however throwing those themes out there based on an unnamed boogeyman is a cop-out and holds people back by giving a nameless figure to blame their problems on instead of taking responsibility for their actions.  Improving ones lot in life is a lot harder than maintaining it.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 12:06:52 pm
Do they actually get held back?  It's almost impossible to quantify that.
Yes they do and no it isn't.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 19, 2017, 12:09:16 pm
You guys misunderstand privilege. The fact that you don't have to worry about your name or skin colour holding you back from getting a job, loan, or place to live is a privilege that many don't have.

There are all kinds of things which give you privilege, though. Being middle class or upper class with family connections is huge, being attractive is huge. Who has a harder time finding work, an attractive Black woman or a short fat, ugly white man?

Here's a test. Send a Black man with a heavy accent to try to rent apartments then sent an attractive black woman with no accent, or a black man with no accent, to compete. Guess which will win the competition. It's rarely just about skin colour.

When I was working in administration for CRA competition to get in was fierce, and the laws to ensure fair hiring were tightly policed. During some 8 years there I only ever saw them violated three times - by directors wanting to hire a specific person. It probably won't surprise you all three people hired without competition were white. It will probably not surprise anyone all three were young, blonde, female and very attractive.  No, I don't mean they were sleeping with directors. I knew them all very well. But the directors liked having them as their admin assistants, and I don't think them being cute was a coincidence. Hell, after I hired one (as a temp) one of the security guards in the lobby stopped me to thank me, just because he was so delighted she was walking back and forth in front of him every day.

Quote
Worse still it's a privilege not to be profiled and harassed by the police every time you step into public.

The police profile EVERYONE they see. Most people do in some way shape or form. It's human nature. And in any event, police profiling isn't a result of their own inherent racism but their response to criminal trends. I've often seen where Blacks get stopped more often than Whites. Last month for the first time, I saw a study which showed that Arabs AND Blacks get stopped more often than Whites in Ottawa. You know why that is? Because most of the violent street crime in this city is coming from its middle eastern immigrant community.

Quote
Connections and other kinds of capital like that are also privileges, but well beyond everything else and completely unreachable for people who are born into families where their parents were completely held back and couldn't build social, cultural, or material capital to pass on to their kids.

Yeah, but that's social/economic not racist.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 12:17:02 pm
Social and economic barriers as the result of generations of systemic racism.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 12:21:12 pm
Yes they do and no it isn't.

Then quantify it. 

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/8658076

Some examples of non-white people making good decisions and benefiting from it.  The Vietnamese boat people have significantly less unemployment on average and 1 in 5 own a business.

Or there is Toronto one of the most diverse cities in the world and a diversity of income amongst its citizens there.  Playing the race card without proof for bad choices some people make only hurts and divides society.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 19, 2017, 12:30:14 pm
Social and economic barriers as the result of generations of systemic racism.

So how are Black people (most of whom haven't been IN this country more than a generation) more oppressed by this than a poor white unilingual boy like I was?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 12:33:47 pm
Social and economic barriers as the result of generations of systemic racism.

You can't say systemic racism without quoting a law where there is proof it exists.  The law I can think of is the Indian act and the government actually doing racist things to native people from confederation to the 1990s in regards to said act. You can't fight phantoms as it divides the country.  For example the residential school issue is a quantifiable issue of racism as kids were forced from home to go to these schools and many suffered abuse which was government mandated. 

You can't make much of a case now as laws and written policies change and the best people have is "white privelege". I'm pretty sure the people living in Atlantic Canada aren't as priveleges as those living in Alberta or bc.  Those barriers have been lifted which is why many leftists are left with implying things happen when they don't.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 19, 2017, 05:12:42 pm
Quote
You can't say systemic racism without quoting a law...

That's nonsense.  You can have systemic racism without laws.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 06:56:09 pm
That's nonsense.  You can have systemic racism without laws.
Maybe that's the problem. A whole bunch of people don't know what systemic racism is.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 06:57:29 pm
Maybe that's the problem. A whole bunch of people don't know what systemic racism is.

The idea of systemic racism is that there are laws passed that disadvantage a race for the sake of their race.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 07:03:39 pm
The idea of systemic racism is that there are laws passed that disadvantage a race for the sake of their race.
That's not what systemic racism is.

Quote
"When white terrorists bomb a black church and kill five black children, that is an act of individual racism, widely deplored by most segments of the society. But when in that same city--Birmingham, Alabama--five hundred black babies die each year because of the lack of power, food, shelter and medical facilities, and thousands more are destroyed and maimed physically, emotionally and intellectually because of conditions of poverty and discrimination in the black community, that is a function of institutional racism. When a black family moves into a home in a white neighborhood and is stoned, burned or routed out, they are victims of an overt act of individual racism which most people will condemn. But it is institutional racism that keeps black people locked in dilapidated slum tenements, subject to the daily prey of exploitative slumlords, merchants, loan sharks and discriminatory real estate agents. The society either pretends it does not know of this latter situation, or is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

There's a very big difference between "individual acts of racism" and systemic or institutionalized racism. You're talking about explicit racism. Institutional racism is not necessarily explicit and it's not about individual acts of racism.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 07:34:00 pm
That's not what systemic racism is.

There's a very big difference between "individual acts of racism" and systemic or institutionalized racism. You're talking about explicit racism. Institutional racism is not necessarily explicit and it's not about individual acts of racism.

My issue simply is this:  with people saying it's systemic racism and that "it's the man's fault" for whatever problems a person has - it doesn't solve anything, it erodes confidence, and encourages dependency. 

It's far easier to combat racial issues when there are clear cut examples such as laws being passed which disenfranchise people.  The laws can be repealed.  Another example would be a business denying service to someone because of their race and a tape of the encounter went viral. 

 Nobody left or right approves of racism because it simply causes problems in the long term for everyone.  However some people over use the word racism to shut down debate about solutions to problems and that's bad in and of itself.  I think a big reason the civil rights movement of the 60s was so successful because they were able to show all kinds of concrete examples of racism, show why it's bad and as a result action was taken on it.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 09:44:03 am
That's not what systemic racism is.

There's a very big difference between "individual acts of racism" and systemic or institutionalized racism. You're talking about explicit racism. Institutional racism is not necessarily explicit and it's not about individual acts of racism.

You can't ascribe the social conditions many Blacks live under to simple racism. There are a myriad reasons and yes, some are historically due to racism and slavery, but how many decades must pass before we start to suggest that maybe, maybe if you grew up in a slum and you're still in a slum, a lot of that is on you? The Black community in the U.S. has a value problem. Single parent families and child abandonment by men is endemic. Crime, black on black, is endemic. Drugs are everywhere. Very little value is placed on education. Immigrants come to the US with nothing and within a generation are doing very well yet successive generations of Black families live on welfare. This despite decades of aggressive affirmative action campaigns and laws to encourage the hiring, promotion, and higher education of Blacks.

I think in this case your 'systemic racism' is simply society shrugging and saying 'i don't know what to do'.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 20, 2017, 12:02:29 pm
You can't ascribe the social conditions many Blacks live under to simple racism. There are a myriad reasons and yes, some are historically due to racism and slavery, but how many decades must pass before we start to suggest that maybe, maybe if you grew up in a slum and you're still in a slum, a lot of that is on you?
Well, since social mobility isn't all that great, even for white people, you tell me.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 12:24:16 pm
Well, since social mobility isn't all that great, even for white people, you tell me.

Social mobility is far better than in other parts of the world.  Free to succeed and free to fail, it's a 2 way street.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 02:45:57 pm
Social mobility is far better than in other parts of the world.  Free to succeed and free to fail, it's a 2 way street.

Well, statistically, social mobility has been declining in the U.S. I know this goes against the grain of Americans, who like to think their country is the ultimate, as far as social mobility goes, but they're now pretty far down the list.

The fact remains if you put in the effort, you can get ahead. You need to actually attend school and finish with reasonable (not excellent) marks. You'll be guaranteed student loans and grants and placement at a university if you do this and then you're on your way. Learn to dress and talk like the mainstream, and people will treat you like a part of the mainstream. Talk and dress ghetto and nobody from the mainstream wants you near them.

The problem is not that you can't do it. The problem is the temptations put in your path to not do it. Unprotected sex, drugs, gangs, easy money, and a host of others, including the sense of inevitability so many young people in those circumstances feel, that there's no point in trying because it's hopeless. That's the big killer. School ain't cool. Cool is a shiny hand gun and big muscles and a reputation that nobody better diss you.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 20, 2017, 03:09:25 pm
Learn to dress and talk like the mainstream, and people will treat you like a part of the mainstream.

Did you notice that several of the most upwardly mobile people seem to go against that, in fact they are leading the change in the mainstream.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: kimmy on February 20, 2017, 09:21:55 pm
You can't say systemic racism without quoting a law where there is proof it exists.

Kind of like how "Code Red" doesn't exist if it's not written down in the Marine Corps training manual?

 -k
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 21, 2017, 07:27:40 am
Well, statistically, social mobility has been declining in the U.S. . . . The fact remains if you put in the effort, you can get ahead.
So social mobility has been declining because people are lazy. I don't think so.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2017, 09:25:00 am
So social mobility has been declining because people are lazy. I don't think so.
http://www.citylab.com/work/2014/01/us-has-social-mobility-problem-not-one-you-think/8188/

Quote
A groundbreaking study making waves today argues that this isn't true. A child born in the bottom fifth of the income distribution appears to have just as much chance reaching the top fifth in adulthood today as a child born a generation earlier. Combining these results with earlier research, it appears as if prospects for social mobility in America have remained relatively unchanged for half a century.
...
"The key issue in our view," Chetty and colleagues write, "is not that prospects for upward mobility are declining in the U.S. as a whole but rather that some regions of the U.S. persistently offer less mobility than most other developed countries.
...
"The U.S. is better described as a collection of societies," the researchers write, "some of which are 'lands of opportunity' with high rates of mobility across generations, and others in which few children escape poverty."
I think this view makes much more sense. Trying to make generalized claims about the US as a whole is not productive.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 21, 2017, 11:41:04 am
Did you notice that several of the most upwardly mobile people seem to go against that, in fact they are leading the change in the mainstream.

Examples? If you're talking about entertainment people, well... It might be considered very cool to dress like some of the hip hop artists, but you're going to face problems getting a job if you show up for an interview like that in most places.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 21, 2017, 01:30:41 pm
A child born in the bottom fifth of the income distribution appears to have just as much chance reaching the top fifth in adulthood today as a child born a generation earlier.

Which is next to none. Yes, there are a few rags to riches stories, but the simple fact is there is a much stronger riches to riches story.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2017, 02:39:34 pm
Which is next to none. Yes, there are a few rags to riches stories, but the simple fact is there is a much stronger riches to riches story.
So? What makes you think an ideal society should be one where every generation swings between poverty and wealth? You do realize that we are talking about percentiles so any 'rags to riches' story is necessarily combined with a 'riches to rags' story.  This reality means that social mobility will never affect a very large percentage of the population. In this case a 10% chance of rising from bottom to top is pretty damn good.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 21, 2017, 03:07:39 pm
"So?" So, telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps is a pretty stupid position when social mobility isn't actually a thing. When you see generational transmission of poverty then it's quite obvious there's some sort of systematic limitation to people moving up the ladder.

And to bring it back around, the entire reason for making that point was to show the kinds of limitations faced by black people who just a generation ago couldn't even step foot into a college or university. Indigenous peoples couldn't even vote. Yet, many of you want to say those things don't matter today. They absolutely do and this is why.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2017, 03:48:54 pm
"So?" So, telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps is a pretty stupid position when social mobility isn't actually a thing. When you see generational transmission of poverty then it's quite obvious there's some sort of systematic limitation to people moving up the ladder.
Which is why ensuring access to quality schools is so important. As are grants to students from low income families who wish to go to university. But if a child of a welfare mom chooses to become a 16 year old mother there is not much government can do. People are responsible for their own choices and they often imitate their parents which explains most of the inter-generational transfer of standing. All government can do is ensure opportunities exist for those that choose to take them.

More importantly, social mobility *is* a thing. It is just irrational to assume that it is possible or desirable for 100% of people born into the lowest percentile to get out of it because for them to do that you would need a matching number of people to fall into the the lower percentile. That is why these relative measures are not very helpful when it comes to understanding what is right or wrong with society.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 21, 2017, 06:17:05 pm
You can't ascribe the social conditions many Blacks live under to simple racism. There are a myriad reasons and yes, some are historically due to racism and slavery, but how many decades must pass before we start to suggest that maybe, maybe if you grew up in a slum and you're still in a slum, a lot of that is on you? The Black community in the U.S. has a value problem. Single parent families and child abandonment by men is endemic. Crime, black on black, is endemic. Drugs are everywhere. Very little value is placed on education. Immigrants come to the US with nothing and within a generation are doing very well yet successive generations of Black families live on welfare. This despite decades of aggressive affirmative action campaigns and laws to encourage the hiring, promotion, and higher education of Blacks.

I think in this case your 'systemic racism' is simply society shrugging and saying 'i don't know what to do'.

Systemic racism exists, and white privilege exists.  It sucks for visible minorities. What you're describing above IS systemic racism, at least primarily in the US.

Consider in the US in the 1860's when slaves were freed.  They literally had NOTHING.  No money, no property or land ownership, no possessions other than the clothes on their backs, and importantly no education (probably couldn't even read or write).  Compare that to white people at that same time.  Most had a bit of money, owned a home or a farm, many had basic education while some were well-educated/professionals.  Black people were starting at zero, while white people were ahead in the game already, without even factoring in the racism that existed still.

So if you're poor and uneducated like everyone else in your family and in your neighbourhood, those trends will tend to continue through successive generations.  Education won't be valued the same compared to if you came from a family that was more educated.  Children with parents who are educated and are better at helping their kids learn will have a leg up in school and childhood development than families who aren't well-educated and don't value education as much.  It also doesn't matter if you're black or white, if you're poor and your mom had you when she was 15 years old and you don't have a dad that's not going to help anything either.  Mom might be working a shitty job and doing drugs just to get through the day (and maybe she didn't come from a solid family either) and maybe the kids will get into drugs too.  These things tend to be cyclical through generations until somebody defies the odds, which isn't easy because we learn many of our habits from our parents and peers. It's not much different with Canadian aboriginal people.

You can look at immigrants/refugees in Canada from certain areas in the world.  Refugees from ie: Somalia aren't going to come to Canada with much if any wealth, and they don't have as high value on education like some Asian cultures do, so of course they're going to be living in the poor neighbourhoods of our cities, which isn't a good environment for a person to grow up in if you're betting on their chances of being well-educated/successful.

The problem is, you could give these people free education but there isn't any social program that will make parent A magically become a university grad and willing to sit down with their kids every night and help them with their homework.  It's easy for us to say certain people/groups/cultures need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps but it's not easy nor even reasonable to expect masses of people to break free from generational habits and defy how they were raised!  Environmental factors are extremely potent. That's also a type of privilege.  Racism that still currently exists only adds to the difficulty.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2017, 06:19:45 pm
So if you're poor and uneducated like everyone else in your family and in your neighbourhood, those trends will tend to continue through successive generations.
Which means there is no "white privilege" only "wealth privilege". It helps no one to frame these issues as race based. All such framings do is polarize people and make it even harder to address real issues.

You can look at immigrants/refugees in Canada from certain areas in the world.  Refugees from ie: Somalia aren't going to come to Canada with much if any wealth, and they don't have as high value on education like some Asian cultures do, so of course they're going to be living in the poor neighbourhoods of our cities, which isn't a good environment for a person to grow up in if you're betting on their chances of being well-educated/successful.
Which is exactly why we don't want immigration from these kinds of societies. We need people that are going to contribute to society - not be a burden on it because they don't have skills or background that would allow them to succeed.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 21, 2017, 09:03:37 pm
Perhaps you should educate yourself a little on how much immigrants have contributed to the Canadian economy and society, and how many more we will need as we continue to age and have very small families if any at all. Yes there are some that may need some help, or would you and your ilk wish to simply ignore those people? It seems we don't have to import bigots, we have our own born and bred.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 21, 2017, 09:27:42 pm
Perhaps you should educate yourself a little on how much immigrants have contributed to the Canadian economy and society, and how many more we will need as we continue to age and have very small families if any at all. Yes there are some that may need some help, or would you and your ilk wish to simply ignore those people? It seems we don't have to import bigots, we have our own born and bred.

As he said the right immigrants like the Vietnamese boat people.  Given that it's a post 9/11 world, some vetting is in order. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 21, 2017, 09:30:01 pm
Canada has a rigorous system of background checks and interviews for refugees and most immigrants.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 21, 2017, 10:38:29 pm
Which means there is no "white privilege" only "wealth privilege". It helps no one to frame these issues as race based. All such framings do is polarize people and make it even harder to address real issues.

Every white person in Canada has certain advantages they usually aren't aware of based on how other people treat them simply because of the colour of their skin.  From cops to store owners to employers to landlords to voters, especially if they're white too.  That's what white privilege means.  It's not an insult to you, it's not the cause of every social/economic failure of non-whites, it's not really your fault, and it's not that hard to understand.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 22, 2017, 12:21:03 am
Every white person in Canada has certain advantages they usually aren't aware of based on how other people treat them simply because of the colour of their skin.
Nonsense invented to justify racist ideologies. Poor white people struggle just as much as poor non-whites. Rich non-whites sail through life like any rich white. The determining factor is money and only money. Skin colour has no bearing on the success people have in life unless they are so obsessed with it and they accuse people of racism anytime they don't get their way. Then they may find skin colour matters because they choose to make an issue of it. It is certainly nothing "systematic".
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 22, 2017, 02:01:34 am
Poor white people struggle just as much as poor non-whites. Rich non-whites sail through life like any rich white.

Mostly yeah, but not in terms of race.  Being mostly free of racism makes social mobility just a bit more easier.

Quote
The determining factor is money and only money. Skin colour has no bearing on the success people have in life...

Saying it doesn't mean it's true.  Tell that to my friends' white father who has his own business and tells me he hires the white guy over the black guy if all things equal.  I'm not saying it's a factor even close to as important as money or education, but racism still exists.  The fact that white police are more racist against black people proves that it's systemic.  You have the privilege to never have to worry about this stuff and the privilege of being totally unaware of your own privilege, because realizing it vs not will have zero effect on your life.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 02:30:23 am
Mostly yeah, but not in terms of race.  Being mostly free of racism makes social mobility just a bit more easier.

Saying it doesn't mean it's true.  Tell that to my friends' white father who has his own business and tells me he hires the white guy over the black guy if all things equal.  I'm not saying it's a factor even close to as important as money or education, but racism still exists.  The fact that white police are more racist against black people proves that it's systemic.  You have the privilege to never have to worry about this stuff and the privilege of being totally unaware of your own privilege, because realizing it vs not will have zero effect on your life.

You can't say racism without proof.  It doesn't help solve anything, throwing the race card because some people make bad decisions is what keeps people down instead of solving problems.  If your friends dad wants to be a racist that's his loss for not taking a qualified black guy who can find a job for a non racist.

What proof do you have that white police are racist?  Name one law that is promoting racism.  You can't stereotype like that and throw out the race card as a blanket statement for groups, it's intellectually lazy and solves nothing.  White people worry just as much about the consequences of their bad decisions as anyone else.  Dress like ****, and act like a jackass and expect to be treated as such.

White privelege is the. Ingest academic myth out there and its poisoning youths mind.  No wonder Donald trump won, people are sick and tires of being **** on by acedemics.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 22, 2017, 02:33:31 am
Tell that to my friends' white father who has his own business and tells me he hires the white guy over the black guy if all things equal.
Try being non-Chinese and finding a job in Richmond. Racism can affect everyone. Even then, money and the connections that come with money are much more important.

As for the cops: when a particular minority group is responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime it should come as no surprise that law abiding members of this group face more scrutiny. Police need training to deal with their natural human tendency to 'pattern match'. This affects black cops as much as white cops. So I don't think you can reasonably argue this is proof of any systematic bias based on skin colour. Particularly since into only affects one particular sub-group of non-white people. East and South Asians have no particular issue with the police which illustrates why "white privilege" is a fiction.

You have the privilege to never have to worry about this stuff and the privilege of being totally unaware of your own privilege, because realizing it vs not will have zero effect on your life.
This is game you wish to play: make up an imaginary premise and then claim my refusal to accept your imaginary premise is evidence that the premise is true. No sorry: the flying spaghetti monster white privilege is not real. Any privilege that exists is due to wealth.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 22, 2017, 10:37:22 am
Try being non-Chinese and finding a job in Richmond. Racism can affect everyone.

I agree.  I believe that pretty much all groups contain a great many people that are racist against those not in their racial group.  In a country where the vast majority are white, that means those that are non-white will generally be at some kind of disadvantage racially, and whites will benefit.  This is the system I'm talking about.  And AGAIN I'm not arguing that money & education & culture aren't bigger factors.

Quote
As for the cops: when a particular minority group is responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime it should come as no surprise that law abiding members of this group face more scrutiny. Police need training to deal with their natural human tendency to 'pattern match'. This affects black cops as much as white cops. So I don't think you can reasonably argue this is proof of any systematic bias based on skin colour.

You just admitted that there's systematic bias based on skin colour.  And I agree that police need more training to combat their own racial biases based on the racial trends of crime they see.  But don't tell me this doesn't make a lot of cops racist.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 11:04:15 am
Try being non-Chinese and finding a job in Richmond. Racism can affect everyone. Even then, money and the connections that come with money are much more important.

As for the cops: when a particular minority group is responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime it should come as no surprise that law abiding members of this group face more scrutiny. Police need training to deal with their natural human tendency to 'pattern match'. This affects black cops as much as white cops. So I don't think you can reasonably argue this is proof of any systematic bias based on skin colour. Particularly since into only affects one particular sub-group of non-white people. East and South Asians have no particular issue with the police which illustrates why "white privilege" is a fiction.
This is game you wish to play: make up an imaginary premise and then claim my refusal to accept your imaginary premise is evidence that the premise is true. No sorry: the flying spaghetti monster white privilege is not real. Any privilege that exists is due to wealth.

Your also jumping to conclusions in saying that there needs to be more training with "pattern matching".  It's not just skin colour which is a small factor in a totality of factors in how someone is dealt with by anyone, police, store workers, waiters, etc.  There is their attitude, how they dress, how they walk, how they talk to people, are they hanging out with known criminals, are they on a mind altering substance, are they themselves known to police, do they match the description of someone who just committed a crime, etc.  You know that just throwing out the race card is taking a lot of things out of context.

NYC had the broken window theory in the 90's which led to a dramatic reduction in crime in the city, but now is viewed as racist as coincidently a lot of minorities were arrested because of it.  A problem is that people are taking results and using it as confirmation bias for their beliefs instead of seeing them as coincidence of results.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 22, 2017, 01:11:39 pm
You just admitted that there's systematic bias based on skin colour.  And I agree that police need more training to combat their own racial biases based on the racial trends of crime they see.  But don't tell me this doesn't make a lot of cops racist.
Racism is irrational prejudice. The behavior exhibited by cops is perfectly rational given the higher prevalence of crimes committed by the group in question. I am saying is cops need to be sensitive to concerns of law abiding citizens that come to their attention because they share physical attributes with people committing crimes.

More importantly: East and South Asians have no particular problems with cops which shows that your premise that better treatment by cops is "white privilege" is complete nonsense.

Furthermore, the prevalence of crimes by people of particular backgrounds which leads to more police attention is a direct consequence of poverty which is further re-enforcement of my argument that there is only "wealth privilege". There is no "white privilege".
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2017, 01:33:55 pm
Furthermore, the prevalence of crimes by people of particular backgrounds which leads to more police attention is a direct consequence of poverty which is further re-enforcement of my argument that there is only "wealth privilege". There is no "white privilege".

There are a lot of crimes committed by wealthy people. Far more than both of those is age, there is a lot of "youthful indiscretion" amongst wealthy white kids and a lot of "criminal behaviour" amongst ghetto black kids. The actions of course are the same in both cases.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 02:14:08 pm
There are a lot of crimes committed by wealthy people. Far more than both of those is age, there is a lot of "youthful indiscretion" amongst wealthy white kids and a lot of "criminal behaviour" amongst ghetto black kids. The actions of course are the same in both cases.

Once again your taking things out of context to confirm a confirmation bias.  This is a problem on both the left and right in the day of instant social media and people demanding instant results.  What happens is that there become essentially witch hunts with people jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out there.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 02:24:37 pm


What proof do you have that white police are racist?  Name one law that is promoting racism.


Police don't make the laws they are tasked to enforce them. Have a look at the evidence how Blacks are treated by cops im the States or Indigenous people are in Canada. There are plenty of webcam videos to choose from. Why do you think there is such an outcry to have cops, especially in the States, to wear body cams?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 02:36:15 pm
Police don't make the laws they are tasked to enforce them. Have a look at the evidence how Blacks are treated by cops im the States or Indigenous people are in Canada. There are plenty of webcam videos to choose from. Why do you think there is such an outcry to have cops, especially in the States, to wear body cams?

Name the law please.  You have no proof only opinions taken out of context.  Your proposing a double standard of stereotyping by pitching all cops as racist instead of particular individuals where you can quantify that said individual is racist. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 02:54:33 pm
Name the law please.  You have no proof only opinions taken out of context.  Your proposing a double standard of stereotyping by pitching all cops as racist instead of particular individuals where you can quantify that said individual is racist.
Once again, I am mot speaking of a particular law, I am talking about enforcement. And nobody is pitching ALL cops as racist. However it is evident that it exists to the extent that it needs to be dealt with. Training is a start and body cams is extra insurance. How many white people have you heard of who ended up being arrested, thrown in jail, where they died the next day, for not signalling a lane change?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 03:09:04 pm
Once again, I am mot speaking of a particular law, I am talking about enforcement. And nobody is pitching ALL cops as racist. However it is evident that it exists to the extent that it needs to be dealt with. Training is a start and body cams is extra insurance. How many white people have you heard of who ended up being arrested, thrown in jail, where they died the next day, for not signalling a lane change?

Once again name a quantifiable law or policy that shows racism.  You can't.  You are pitching that cops are racist without evidence and without context to suit your confirmation bias.  How should they be trained, should they be complacent resulting in a more dangerous working environment?  You don't even know what the full context of their training is, no one here does.  Body cams; are you willing to pay for the massive cost of server farms to store the massive amount of data collected?  How about privacy issues with them?  How about lack of discretion with body cams as the tape is always rolling?  How about a lack of pro active policing as it's far easier to not leave the office and risk gathering evidence against yourself?

As for the black lady dying in jail?  You don't have any context.  She decided to have a meltdown which resulted in her being arrested and killed herself in jail.  That's not racist, that's a woman succumbing to her mental issues.  This is why democrats keep losing in the states because people are tired of being called racist, bigots, xenophobia, and homophobes without evidence and context.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 03:52:04 pm
Once again name a quantifiable law or policy that shows racism.  You can't.  You are pitching that cops are racist without evidence and without context to suit your confirmation bias.  How should they be trained, should they be complacent resulting in a more dangerous working environment?  You don't even know what the full context of their training is, no one here does.  Body cams; are you willing to pay for the massive cost of server farms to store the massive amount of data collected?  How about privacy issues with them?  How about lack of discretion with body cams as the tape is always rolling?  How about a lack of pro active policing as it's far easier to not leave the office and risk gathering evidence against yourself?

As for the black lady dying in jail?  You don't have any context.  She decided to have a meltdown which resulted in her being arrested and killed herself in jail.  That's not racist, that's a woman succumbing to her mental issues.  This is why democrats keep losing in the states because people are tired of being called racist, bigots, xenophobia, and homophobes without evidence and context.

And once again, I am speaking of enforcement, not a specific law, although the States has had a plethora of them, and we have certainly had a few of our own. Luckily we have been progressive enough to correct most of it. If you watch the dashcam and assume it was she who had the meltdown then the bias is overwhelming. It seems pretty obvious that he gets her out of the car and off to the side so as to not be in view of the dashcam, but you can certainly hear what's going on.Which is probably why the officer was fired and the county paid out 1.9 million in a "wrongful death" suit  As to body cams, no they're not on all the time.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2017, 04:04:48 pm
Canada has a rigorous system of background checks and interviews for refugees and most immigrants.

Not actually true.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 04:08:18 pm
And once again, I am speaking of enforcement, not a specific law, although the States has had a plethora of them, and we have certainly had a few of our own. Luckily we have been progressive enough to correct most of it. If you watch the dashcam and assume it was she who had the meltdown then the bias is overwhelming. It seems pretty obvious that he gets her out of the car and off to the side so as to not be in view of the dashcam, but you can certainly hear what's going on.Which is probably why the officer was fired and the county paid out 1.9 million in a "wrongful death" suit  As to body cams, no they're not on all the time.

Context again.  She played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.  The officer in fairness also played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.  Had she not had a meltdown and cooperated she would have been on her way.  Also the officer decided that a traffic stop was worth his career.  This is why context is important.  This isn't a case of racism, it's a case of two stubborn people playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2017, 04:12:08 pm
Once again, I am mot speaking of a particular law, I am talking about enforcement. And nobody is pitching ALL cops as racist. However it is evident that it exists to the extent that it needs to be dealt with.

But the way you attribute certain behavior patterns to police in general is identical to the way police attribute certain behavior patterns to young black males. The difference, of course, is that the police belief in the behavior of young black males  is reinforced by statistics and evidence, whereas the belief of minorities and leftists that  police are racist against minorities is mainly derived from television and other media exaggerations.

Witness how you have black women in the states saying they're worried when their teenage sons go outside, that they'll be gunned down by the police, despite the overwhelming evidence that their real danger comes from other young black males.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2017, 04:13:55 pm
There are a lot of crimes committed by wealthy people. Far more than both of those is age, there is a lot of "youthful indiscretion" amongst wealthy white kids and a lot of "criminal behaviour" amongst ghetto black kids. The actions of course are the same in both cases.

What the police focus on is what the community most fears. That's not financial crime. That's not vandalism. It's violence, especially violence by strangers. And the statistics tell us that blacks commit such crimes far more than whites.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2017, 04:18:13 pm
Police don't make the laws they are tasked to enforce them. Have a look at the evidence how Blacks are treated by cops im the States or Indigenous people are in Canada. There are plenty of webcam videos to choose from. Why do you think there is such an outcry to have cops, especially in the States, to wear body cams?

Gee, maybe we should require young black males to wear bodycams...
No, I guess that wouldn't be politically correct.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more videos on You tube with the police in them, to be honest. Every time I see one there are a dozen people holding up cell phones. Every time there is a police confrontation there ought to be video. But in fact, there are very few videos on the internet compared to the thousands of confrontations and  interactions the police have with people every day. So all you get are a select few based on how dramatic they are.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2017, 04:20:14 pm
Once again, I am mot speaking of a particular law, I am talking about enforcement. And nobody is pitching ALL cops as racist. However it is evident that it exists to the extent that it needs to be dealt with. Training is a start and body cams is extra insurance. How many white people have you heard of who ended up being arrested, thrown in jail, where they died the next day, for not signalling a lane change?

How many failed to signal a lane change, then refused to cooperate with police? Lots of white people have died in jail or at the hands of police. The only reason why the numbers for blacks are statistically higher is because blacks are statistically more likely to be criminals.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 04:34:20 pm
Gee, maybe we should require young black males to wear bodycams...
No, I guess that wouldn't be politically correct.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more videos on You tube with the police in them, to be honest. Every time I see one there are a dozen people holding up cell phones. Every time there is a police confrontation there ought to be video. But in fact, there are very few videos on the internet compared to the thousands of confrontations and  interactions the police have with people every day. So all you get are a select few based on how dramatic they are.
So you think young citizens should bear the expense of providing their own body cams as a protection against abuse by police, simply because they are black? The i-net is full of videos which demonstrate inappropriate actions by police dealing with blacks. There is a new one out showing white cops stopping a marked car carrying four parole officers who were wearing BP vests, and badges, in a marked vehicle abd guess what, they were black.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 04:38:38 pm
How many failed to signal a lane change, then refused to cooperate with police? Lots of white people have died in jail or at the hands of police. The only reason why the numbers for blacks are statistically higher is because blacks are statistically more likely to be criminals.

She did NOT refuse to cooperate. He overstepped his authority in asking her to do what he did. She had no requirement to cooperate. Perhaps that's why he's fired.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2017, 05:09:41 pm
Gee, maybe we should require young black males to wear bodycams...

They would probably try, but the cops wound rip them off and destroy the evidence.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 06:13:14 pm
She did NOT refuse to cooperate. He overstepped his authority in asking her to do what he did. She had no requirement to cooperate. Perhaps that's why he's fired.

He was fired to appease the community and prevent a riot.

When you get pulled over it's wise to obey all the instructions to not give any reason for bad stuff to happen.  How do you know he overstepped his authority? 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 22, 2017, 06:42:20 pm
Mostly yeah, but not in terms of race.
This is the crucial point you're ignoring, Tim. A poor white person suffers because they are poor. A poor black person suffers because they are poor AND they deal with discrimination on a regular basis because of their skin colour. It's not an additive effect either. In the majority of studies it's a multiplicative effect.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 22, 2017, 07:07:45 pm
Racism is irrational prejudice. The behavior exhibited by cops is perfectly rational given the higher prevalence of crimes committed by the group in question. I am saying is cops need to be sensitive to concerns of law abiding citizens that come to their attention because they share physical attributes with people committing crimes.

The problem is cops aren't robots, they're human beings who also act and think on emotion not just statistical trends.  When you spend years working the beat and dealing with the same type of impoverished black people who are getting into crimes, you can start to resent or even hate this racial group, and this affects how you treat them in your work.

Exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdZ5xuZOlbk

If you think racism doesn't still exist against many visible minority groups, both consciously and unconsciously, well then I think you're living in some kind of fantasy world and we'll just agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 22, 2017, 07:18:02 pm
The problem is cops aren't robots, they're human beings who also act and think on emotion not just statistical trends.  When you spend years working the beat and dealing with the same type of impoverished black people who are getting into crimes, you can start to resent or even hate this racial group, and this affects how you treat them in your work.
So now you are acknowledging the police attitudes are a consequence of black crime which, in turn, is a consequence of poverty. Seems to me the the root cause is poverty - not racism.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 22, 2017, 07:31:04 pm
This is the crucial point you're ignoring, Tim. A poor white person suffers because they are poor. A poor black person suffers because they are poor AND they deal with discrimination on a regular basis because of their skin colour. It's not an additive effect either. In the majority of studies it's a multiplicative effect.
Everyone faces discrimination because of their appearance from time to time. For some people it is because they are too fat or too short or too tall or because the person you are dealing with is having a bad day. There is no evidence that the kind of rejection experienced by blacks in Canadian society is materially different than the rejection that most individuals experience as they go about their lives. It is just non-blacks have learned to ignore these experiences and move on. Blacks (at least some of them) decide this is evidence of a racist society which is complete, self aggrandizing, BS.

Study after study shows that access to money and the things that come with money (better housing, better schools, better opportunities) is the biggest factor that affects future economic standing of children. Trying to turn it into a question of race is counter productive.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 08:30:08 pm
He was fired to appease the community and prevent a riot.

When you get pulled over it's wise to obey all the instructions to not give any reason for bad stuff to happen.  How do you know he overstepped his authority?
Because she is allowed to smoke in her own car, and when she refused to put it out, that's where the cop lost his marbles.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 08:58:49 pm
Because she is allowed to smoke in her own car, and when she refused to put it out, that's where the cop lost his marbles.

They both lost their marbles.  One hung herself and the other ruined his career.  Stupid games stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 09:09:21 pm
They both lost their marbles.  One hung herself and the other ruined his career.  Stupid games stupid prizes.

Except his loos of marbles was illegal. Hers wasn't. Do you think the outcome would have been different had she been white? I think so.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 09:35:57 pm
Except his loos of marbles was illegal. Hers wasn't. Do you think the outcome would have been different had she been white? I think so.

 Nope.  You have to listen to commands until stop is done.  Putting out a smoke is a reasonable request.  That being said both played stupid games and won stupid prizes.  Crazy white people get the same treatment no matter what the media tells you.

I drive a lifted up pick up truck, price I pay for being a redneck is getting stopped more than someone driving a new minivan.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 22, 2017, 10:47:36 pm
Quote
I drive a lifted up pick up truck, price I pay for being a redneck is getting stopped more than someone driving a new minivan.

If the minivan driver is black, he will get stopped more often than a white minivan driver... 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2017, 11:04:20 pm
Nope.  You have to listen to commands until stop is done.  Putting out a smoke is a reasonable request.  That being said both played stupid games and won stupid prizes.  Crazy white people get the same treatment no matter what the media tells you.

I drive a lifted up pick up truck, price I pay for being a redneck is getting stopped more than someone driving a new minivan.

Nope, you don't have to listen to commands beyond those that are pursuant to the original traffic stop. Provide appropriate documents of course. Put out a cigarette, while perhaps reasonable, has no legal significance. The cop can only complete what the reason was for the original stop. She clearly says at one point go ahead and give me the ticket. Had he have done just that, they could have both got on their way, he would still have a job, and she would likely not be dead.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 11:38:04 pm
Nope, you don't have to listen to commands beyond those that are pursuant to the original traffic stop. Provide appropriate documents of course. Put out a cigarette, while perhaps reasonable, has no legal significance. The cop can only complete what the reason was for the original stop. She clearly says at one point go ahead and give me the ticket. Had he have done just that, they could have both got on their way, he would still have a job, and she would likely not be dead.

A smoke can mask odours which can show impaired driving or possession of narcotics.  Plus the smoke can be used to burn someone.  It is a reasonable request and she could have listened and received her warning, not even a ticket and been on her way.  At the same time he made it his bill to die on and lost his job over a traffic stop.  More like mental illness than racism at play.  There's a place to fight cops and it's in court.  Stupid people stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2017, 11:49:42 pm
If the minivan driver is black, he will get stopped more often than a white minivan driver...
I've been stopped in both a red and a silver minivan, both times were RIDE checks.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 22, 2017, 11:55:39 pm
If the minivan driver is black, he will get stopped more often than a white minivan driver...

Once again lack of context.  Why did stop happen would be a start.  Time of day?  Area of town? 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 12:31:01 am
Once again lack of context.  Why did stop happen would be a start.  Time of day?  Area of town?

You continually ignore the context. Which is the color of the driver.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 12:42:59 am
You continually ignore the context. Which is the color of the driver.

 Nice try, colour of the driver is a non-factor in a valid stop.  When you pass traffic how close are you to the other cars to notice what colour the driver is?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 01:16:12 am
Nice try, colour of the driver is a non-factor in a valid stop.  When you pass traffic how close are you to the other cars to notice what colour the driver is?

OMG what a feeble attempt to deflect. For starters you can clearly see in the dashcam it's a black woman driving the car. But certainly after she is pulled over it is completely obvious. Why didn't he just give her the fifty buck ticket or whatever it costs for not signalling a lane change, and let both get on their way? If she's have been white, I suggest that's exactly how it would have played out.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 23, 2017, 08:38:52 am
If you think racism doesn't still exist against many visible minority groups, both consciously and unconsciously, well then I think you're living in some kind of fantasy world and we'll just agree to disagree.
It's not a "fantasy world." It's their real life and it's the privilege of not only not experiencing these things but also the privilege of being able to convince yourself that those things don't even exist. But white privilege is a myth, apparently.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 09:48:37 am
OMG what a feeble attempt to deflect. For starters you can clearly see in the dashcam it's a black woman driving the car. But certainly after she is pulled over it is completely obvious. Why didn't he just give her the fifty buck ticket or whatever it costs for not signalling a lane change, and let both get on their way? If she's have been white, I suggest that's exactly how it would have played out.

You don't know how his other dealings with other motorists go as a baseline.  None of us are mind readers to jump to suggesting he's racist without proof.  As far as I'm concerned it was a power trip over someone not following commands and being difficult to deal with and possibly having a mental illness.  They both decided to fight on the road instead of a courtroom and paid dearly for doing so.  Your using this as an example of confirming your bias without looking at things in context. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 10:12:29 am
As far as I'm concerned it was a power trip over someone not following commands and being difficult to deal with and possibly having a mental illness.
This is the root of the problem. Everyone has to deal with a**holes from time to time and sometimes these a**holes are in positions of power. If a white person encounters such people they blame the a**hole. If certain non-white people encounter the exact same behavior they scream 'racism' when it is nothing of the sort.

The only people living in a fantasy world are those who believe there is any systematic racism in Canadian society today.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 10:15:20 am
It's not a "fantasy world." It's their real life and it's the privilege of not only not experiencing these things but also the privilege of being able to convince yourself that those things don't even exist. But white privilege is a myth, apparently.

 Not apparently, is a myth.  There are priveleges with people and their parents making good decisions. 

That post above is why the continent is so divided and productive people have had it with being told it's their fault for all the evils in the world, and being made to go on a guilt trip because they made good decisions.  It's that attitude which opens the floodgates of socialism and the evils that come with it.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 10:47:43 am
You don't know how his other dealings with other motorists go as a baseline.  None of us are mind readers to jump to suggesting he's racist without proof.  As far as I'm concerned it was a power trip over someone not following commands and being difficult to deal with and possibly having a mental illness.  They both decided to fight on the road instead of a courtroom and paid dearly for doing so.  Your using this as an example of confirming your bias without looking at things in context.
It's pretty clear it was he who decided to fight on the road. He had no reason to ask her to get out of the car. Your attempts to make excuses for him are quite flimsy. Perhap he was just a bad cop all around, but I suggest that dealing with a Back person brought out the worst im him.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 11:48:12 am
It's pretty clear it was he who decided to fight on the road. He had no reason to ask her to get out of the car. Your attempts to make excuses for him are quite flimsy. Perhap he was just a bad cop all around, but I suggest that dealing with a Back person brought out the worst im him.

More jumping to conclusions and racism without proof!

As for "no reason" to pull someone out of a car, that's up to him to come up with a reason and it's not his problem if people don't like his reason.  Not listening to lawful commands is how fights start.  For the sake of fairness, one has to decide if it's worth it to issue said commands.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 23, 2017, 12:57:06 pm
Not listening to lawful commands is how fights start.
Making unlawful commands plays a significant, if not larger role.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 02:45:45 pm
More jumping to conclusions and racism without proof!

As for "no reason" to pull someone out of a car, that's up to him to come up with a reason and it's not his problem if people don't like his reason.  Not listening to lawful commands is how fights start.  For the sake of fairness, one has to decide if it's worth it to issue said commands.
Except his commands were not lawful.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 23, 2017, 03:57:49 pm
The only people living in a fantasy world are those who believe there is any systematic racism in Canadian society today.

Do you think there ever was systemic racism?  When do you think it stopped?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 04:23:44 pm
Do you think there ever was systemic racism?  When do you think it stopped?

Hell's Bell's it was only twenty years ago they closed the last residential school.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 05:28:45 pm
Do you think there ever was systemic racism?  When do you think it stopped?
It ended in the 70s and 80s with reforms to various laws and the passage of the human rights act. Since then racism, when it does appear, is the act of individuals and are not the result of the "system".
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 05:30:53 pm
Except his commands were not lawful.

The Supreme Court says otherwise

Pennsylvania vs mimms
Maryland vs Wilson

Play stupid games win stupid prizes
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: BC_cheque on February 23, 2017, 06:23:07 pm
Nonsense invented to justify racist ideologies. Poor white people struggle just as much as poor non-whites. Rich non-whites sail through life like any rich white. The determining factor is money and only money. Skin colour has no bearing on the success people have in life unless they are so obsessed with it and they accuse people of racism anytime they don't get their way. Then they may find skin colour matters because they choose to make an issue of it. It is certainly nothing "systematic".

Sure, there is no inherent racism because you've never experienced it... as a white guy.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 23, 2017, 06:28:46 pm
Hell's Bell's it was only twenty years ago they closed the last residential school.

In fairness, they didn't operate the way that earlier residential schools did.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 08:17:33 pm
Sure, there is no inherent racism because you've never experienced it... as a white guy.

And that's a cop out to justify implementing socialism to ensure equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 08:47:43 pm
The Supreme Court says otherwise

Pennsylvania vs mimms
Maryland vs Wilson

Play stupid games win stupid prizes
The supreme course said nothing of the kind. Sarah Blands arrest was unlawful.

A police stop “may ‘last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.’ Authority for the seizure thus ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are — or reasonably should have been — completed.”
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 09:14:26 pm
Sure, there is no inherent racism because you've never experienced it... as a white guy.
How would you know? I have dealt with plenty of people who treated me poorly or refused to give me the time of day because there was something they did not like about me. Why are those experiences materially different than the so-called "racism" experienced by non-whites?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 23, 2017, 09:16:47 pm
It ended in the 70s and 80s with reforms to various laws and the passage of the human rights act. Since then racism, when it does appear, is the act of individuals and are not the result of the "system".

And what happens when laws and human rights codes aren't followed?  When many police, as agents of the government tasked with enforcing laws,  treat citizens differently based on race on a system-wide level?

As for aboriginals, to say they still aren't systemically oppressed is a joke.  Nobody in Ottawa or in the provinces gives much of a **** about them.  Nobody cares about living up to various treaties, policies or laws made throughout the centuries.  They're among the poorest people in the country, it's very difficult for them to sue, so they're left with putting up protest barricades on the railway tracks that run through their land.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 09:42:57 pm
As for aboriginals, to say they still aren't systemically oppressed is a joke.
Treaties are a relic of a racist, feudal society that have no place in today's society. Aboriginals themselves are the biggest racists in Canadian society today because they demand special treatment because of their race. It takes a lot chutzpah for them to accuse others of racism.

That said, the social problems the various communities face are invariably due to wealth - not race. When a band is well run and in a location which is economically viable then many of the problems disappear. When the band is run by corrupt officials far from any economic center then you have disaster. The difference is aboriginals think the rest of the country should pay them so they can stay in these uneconomic backwaters. It is not oppression if someone refuse to pay you so you can do nothing.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 09:56:11 pm
Treaties are a relic of a racist, feudal society that have no place in today's society. Aboriginals themselves are the biggest racists in Canadian society today because they demand special treatment because of their race. It takes a lot chutzpah for them to accuse others of racism.

That said, the social problems the various communities face are invariably due to wealth - not race. When a band is well run and in a location which is economically viable then many of the problems disappear. When the band is run by corrupt officials far from any economic center then you have disaster. The difference is aboriginals think the rest of the country should pay them so they can stay in these uneconomic backwaters. It is not oppression if someone refuse to pay you so you can do nothing.
Treaties have been signed and then largely ignored. And maybe if you went and spent a couple of weeks at the hands of a Catholic Priest in a residential school and then let's see what happens to your chutzpah. How quickly somne of us can try to brush off what we actually did.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 10:20:25 pm
Treaties have been signed and then largely ignored. And maybe if you went and spent a couple of weeks at the hands of a Catholic Priest in a residential school and then let's see what happens to your chutzpah. How quickly somne of us can try to brush off what we actually did.
The residential school thing only affected 20-40% of native kids at their peek. The majority of natives never saw the inside of one of those schools yet all want to claim the mantle of 'victim'. It is insulting and tiresome.

As I said about: treaties where created by the representatives of a feudal society that could never have anticipated how society would evolve. They are legal much like the right to bear arms is legal in the US but legality does not make something moral, ethical or just.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 10:28:51 pm
The supreme course said nothing of the kind. Sarah Blands arrest was unlawful.

A police stop “may ‘last no longer than is necessary to effectuate th[at] purpose.’ Authority for the seizure thus ends when tasks tied to the traffic infraction are — or reasonably should have been — completed.”

That's two cases that went to the Supreme Court which not only said the officer is allowed to ask a person to step out of the vehicle, it permits a pat down for weapons when person leaves said vehicle.  The officer has case law on his side.  Maybe read the case law...
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 10:35:38 pm
The residential school thing only affected 20-40% of native kids at their peek. The majority of natives never saw the inside of one of those schools yet all want to claim the mantle of 'victim'. It is insulting and tiresome.

As I said about: treaties where created by the representatives of a feudal society that could never have anticipated how society would evolve. They are legal much like the right to bear arms is legal in the US but legality does not make something moral, ethical or just.
Residential schools were created by the racists of the day. About 150,000 children were ripped from their homes, about 6000 died, and how many were sexually assaulted? Trying to gloss over it because it happened before your time is simply an attempt to sweep reality under the rug. Right wingers seem to waste their time with that.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 10:42:32 pm
That's two cases that went to the Supreme Court which not only said the officer is allowed to ask a person to step out of the vehicle, it permits a pat down for weapons when person leaves said vehicle.  The officer has case law on his side.  Maybe read the case law...
A landmark case at the SCOTUS ruled that you can't detain someone beyond the original reason for the police intervention. A man was stopped for speeding by a cop who happened to be a K9 unit. After he checked the paperwork and issued a speeding ticket, he held the guy up further to let his dog sniff the car and some illegal methamphetamine was found which led to a further charge. Case was thrown out because the cop overstepped his authority. You need to study law a bit more it seems. Cops aren't kings.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2017, 10:51:02 pm
Trying to gloss over it because it happened before your time is simply an attempt to sweep reality under the rug.t.
How many immigrants have come to this country with back stories that are orders of magnitude worse that anything that happened to the natives? Their grandchildren are not telling the courts that they should not be responsible for their crimes because their grandparents were forced to attend school. We also have no reliable information on the extent of the abuse (which did occur) because human memory is extremely malleable and not everyone "remembering" abuse actually experienced it.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 10:53:43 pm
A landmark case at the SCOTUS ruled that you can't detain someone beyond the original reason for the police intervention. A man was stopped for speeding by a cop who happened to be a K9 unit. After he checked the paperwork and issued a speeding ticket, he held the guy up further to let his dog sniff the car and some illegal methamphetamine was found which led to a further charge. Case was thrown out because the cop overstepped his authority. You need to study law a bit more it seems. Cops aren't kings.

Name the case.  I named two which clearly said the cop can ask someone to not only step out of the car, but searches of the person for weapons yielded drugs and convictions at the Supreme Court.  I can say I studied the matter. Maryland vs Wilson explicitly states that the officer told the driver to step out of the car noticing apparent nervousness and was upheld by the Supreme Court quoting Pennsylvania vs mimms citing its reasonable to ask a driver and occupants to step out of the car as a safety concern.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 11:02:48 pm
How many immigrants have come to this country with back stories that are orders of magnitude worse that anything that happened to the natives? Their grandchildren are not telling the courts that they should not be responsible for their crimes because their grandparents were forced to attend school. We also have no reliable information on the extent of the abuse (which did occur) because human memory is extremely malleable and not everyone "remembering" abuse actually experienced it.
I think if you had been subjected to what went on in residential schools, you wouldn't forget. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 11:08:17 pm
Name the case.  I named two which clearly said the cop can ask someone to not only step out of the car, but searches of the person for weapons yielded drugs and convictions at the Supreme Court.  I can say I studied the matter. Maryland vs Wilson explicitly states that the officer told the driver to step out of the car noticing apparent nervousness and was upheld by the Supreme Court quoting Pennsylvania vs mimms citing its reasonable to ask a driver and occupants to step out of the car as a safety concern.

Rodriguez v United States
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 23, 2017, 11:25:17 pm
Rodriguez v United States

Thanks for that.

It is apples and oranges for asking someone to step out of the car vs bringing a dog to do a search of a car without announcing such.  The Rodriquez case makes sense as the dog was brought up from what appears to be at random.  The cases I mentioned the officers felt it safer to lawfully order the person to step out of the vehicle and check for weapons on the person and discover drugs on the person instead of under the car seat.  From what I see of these Scotus decisions is that every word matters.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 24, 2017, 08:40:09 am
What is immoral and unjust is to magically wish away treaties because they are inconvenient to you. The European occupier cannot tear up treaties and say that was then, this is now, for then they become the European invader.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 24, 2017, 09:16:07 am
What is immoral and unjust is to magically wish away treaties because they are inconvenient to you.
Nonsense. Treaties, as they are currently interpreted, mean citizens have different rights depending on their ancestry. That concept alone should be an anathema to anyone who believes in the idea that all citizens must be equal under the law. So the treaties are immoral and unjust - full stop. That point is not up for debate.

Now that does not mean that we would never try to address wrongs of the past. That does not mean we should ignore the real problems caused by poverty and lack of access to education. But none of these problems require that natives be given special rights. In fact, the "treaty myth" leads many natives to believe they are entitled to live life feudal lords collecting tribute from non-natives who actually produce the wealth. This makes any negotiated settlement impossible because a government representing all Canadians cannot agree to such terms.

The only viable long term solution is an end to all race based rights. That is not likely to happen in this generation but it will eventually have to happen. No other option is viable.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 24, 2017, 09:26:43 am
I think if you had been subjected to what went on in residential schools, you wouldn't forget.
You are ignoring the latest science on memory. Basically human memory is next to useless as a source of information about the past. Each time someone remembers an event they edit their memory based on their current experiences. Over time what they remember can morph into a complete fiction. They have actually done experiments where they planted false memories in subjects (i.e. convincing them that they saw bugs bunny at Disneyland). This research means that 'eye-witness testimony' cannot no longer be accepted as credible without corroborating evidence.

When you are dealing with shared events, such as the residential schools, where believing in a particular narrative is a required by one's social group then the only reasonable assumption is that many of the memories are fictions created by a desire to gain social acceptance from their peers. This does not mean all memories are false - just that we have no way to know which are real and which are fabrications.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 24, 2017, 10:04:26 am
Nonsense. Treaties, as they are currently interpreted, mean citizens have different rights depending on their ancestry. That concept alone should be an anathema to anyone who believes in the idea that all citizens must be equal under the law. So the treaties are immoral and unjust - full stop. That point is not up for debate.

I tell you what Tim. I am going to move into your house and sign a lease to pay you rent. After a few months however, I am equal to you and will no longer pay rent because it is just as much my house as yours. Yes, we will still share the bills like property tax, electricity, etc. but I no longer owe you any rent.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 10:44:52 am
Thanks for that.

It is apples and oranges for asking someone to step out of the car vs bringing a dog to do a search of a car without announcing such.  The Rodriquez case makes sense as the dog was brought up from what appears to be at random.  The cases I mentioned the officers felt it safer to lawfully order the person to step out of the vehicle and check for weapons on the person and discover drugs on the person instead of under the car seat.  From what I see of these Scotus decisions is that every word matters.
Both requests were equally excessive and therefore unlawful.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 24, 2017, 10:52:54 am
I tell you what Tim. I am going to move into your house and sign a lease to pay you rent. After a few months however, I am equal to you and will no longer pay rent because it is just as much my house as yours. Yes, we will still share the bills like property tax, electricity, etc. but I no longer owe you any rent.
A false premise. If you own a house you cannot not automatically pass that house onto your children. You must pay taxes owed and settle any other debts your estate has. If you want to keep your house you must pay the government for it every year. If you fail to pay the government will take your house. Where does any of this apply to the ill-defined 'treaty rights'?

IOW - your comparison is absurd. The concept of "aboriginal title" is a right that is granted only to descendants of aboriginals and that is what makes it immoral. The only fair way forward for a society is make everyone equal under the law which means extinguishing the nonsense that some citizens have special rights because of their ancestry.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 24, 2017, 11:53:16 am
So you think young citizens should bear the expense of providing their own body cams as a protection against abuse by police, simply because they are black?

Oh no. The idea would be for the bodycams to record the crimes that are committed so disproportionately by young black males.
I mean, if it's okay for police to be assumed to need constant surveillance to protect against the few instances of overuse of force surely the same logic applies to the Black community.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 24, 2017, 11:58:15 am
Nope, you don't have to listen to commands beyond those that are pursuant to the original traffic stop. Provide appropriate documents of course. Put out a cigarette, while perhaps reasonable, has no legal significance.

The police see a lit cigarette as a potential weapon. That probably comes from a history of people using them on cops. Not being a lawyer, I couldn't say with absolute certainty the command to put it out is legal but I suspect it is, along with commands like take your hands out of your pockets, or keep your hands in plain sight, or put down that wrench.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 24, 2017, 12:01:03 pm
Residential schools were created by the racists of the day. About 150,000 children were ripped from their homes, about 6000 died, and how many were sexually assaulted?

How many would have died if they stayed home? How many would have been sexually assaulted?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 24, 2017, 12:03:05 pm
What is immoral and unjust is to magically wish away treaties because they are inconvenient to you.

They are even more inconvenient to natives. The reservation system benefits only the chiefs who make big salaries and have power because they control government money. Natives do not benefit. They'd be far better off assimilating into Canadian society.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 01:45:09 pm
How many would have died if they stayed home? How many would have been sexually assaulted?
Thousands less, and that's only an estimate. I don't think Native families Bum F'ed their little boys like catholic priests did.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 01:48:10 pm
The police see a lit cigarette as a potential weapon. That probably comes from a history of people using them on cops. Not being a lawyer, I couldn't say with absolute certainty the command to put it out is legal but I suspect it is, along with commands like take your hands out of your pockets, or keep your hands in plain sight, or put down that wrench.
You don't have to be a lawyer to know asking someone to put out a smoke in their own car is not a lawful command. Do a little research maybe and get back to us.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 01:52:08 pm
Thanks for that.

It is apples and oranges for asking someone to step out of the car vs bringing a dog to do a search of a car without announcing such.  The Rodriquez case makes sense as the dog was brought up from what appears to be at random.  The cases I mentioned the officers felt it safer to lawfully order the person to step out of the vehicle and check for weapons on the person and discover drugs on the person instead of under the car seat.  From what I see of these Scotus decisions is that every word matters.
I would like to hear your justification in the Bland case as to why she was asked to exit the car with regard to weapons. Certainly no evidence I can see from the video.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 24, 2017, 03:20:56 pm
Thousands less, and that's only an estimate. I don't think Native families Bum F'ed their little boys like catholic priests did.

Even more out of context stuff.  Are you suggesting that all catholic police are serial sodomizers?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 03:46:20 pm
Even more out of context stuff.  Are you suggesting that all catholic police are serial sodomizers?
I'm suggesting racism is relatively recent and who knows, maybe still with us.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 25, 2017, 05:35:59 am
Treaties are a relic of a racist, feudal society that have no place in today's society.
Or, you know, they were agreements reached with people because they were already living here when we decided to set up shop.

No big deal. We can rip them up and anyone who is not of indigenous heritage can get the **** out.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 10:54:34 am
I'm suggesting racism is relatively recent and who knows, maybe still with us.

It is on an individual basis, not on a systematic
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 10:58:20 am
Or, you know, they were agreements reached with people because they were already living here when we decided to set up shop.

No big deal. We can rip them up and anyone who is not of indigenous heritage can get the **** out.

It doesn't work like that.  At the end of the day might makes right despite treaties and honour and all that jazz.  Anyone thinking they can live off of treaty benefits and enjoy the same standard of living as those who don't is living in fantasy land
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 25, 2017, 11:17:30 am
Thinking Canada can just rip up treaties is a right-wing fantasy.  The SCC will never let that happen under the Constitution as it is today. 
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 01:12:15 pm
Thinking Canada can just rip up treaties is a right-wing fantasy.  The SCC will never let that happen under the Constitution as it is today.

Canada came very close to changing its constitution in the late 1980s.  The constitution can be changed if there is political will to do so and the SCC can't do anything about it.  It ensures parliamentary supremacy.  Gathering political will is a very daunting undertaking.  Ensuring that the constitution and laws can be changed is a check and balance on the judiciary.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 25, 2017, 02:52:49 pm
Thousands less, and that's only an estimate. I don't think Native families Bum F'ed their little boys like catholic priests did.

An estimate by whom? Sexual assault and child abuse, even today, is endemic on reserves. Tuberculosis was also prevalent on the reserves back then.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 25, 2017, 02:54:39 pm
Or, you know, they were agreements reached with people because they were already living here when we decided to set up shop.

No big deal. We can rip them up and anyone who is not of indigenous heritage can get the **** out.

Or we can rip them up and then fight over who owns the place. Guess who'll win that one?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 25, 2017, 02:56:49 pm
It doesn't work like that.  At the end of the day might makes right...
Treaties are law. But hey, if you want to live by might makes right, then I guess you condone the first nations taking up arms against the government then, right? Since the rule of law (treaties) means nothing and all and might makes right, that's really the only conclusion one can draw from your comments.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 03:49:02 pm
Treaties are law. But hey, if you want to live by might makes right, then I guess you condone the first nations taking up arms against the government then, right? Since the rule of law (treaties) means nothing and all and might makes right, that's really the only conclusion one can draw from your comments.

Treaties and constitution are written in ink and not stone and can be changed if the political will exists.  It's why there is a notwithstanding clause and an amending formula.  That political will is guaranteed by the people allowing the government to have the legal ability to use force.

If the natives or anyone else decides to take up arms against the government that is their folly.  It was tried in the 1830s and 1880s and was a disaster for the non government side.  The rule of law is subject to change by laws being changed and constitutions being changed.  If natives think the treaties are going to supply them with a living standard of a person making a 6 figure salary and a reserve living standard of a high end neighbourhood in Calgary, they have been sold snake oil.  The treaty was meant as basic compensation, not meant to provide a living. 

The natives should come to realize that the constitution can be changed and treaties renegotiated and the governments monopoly on force gives them a huge advantage in negotiations.  If the public finds treaties to be economically unsustainable and wants change, change will happen whether the natives like it or not.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 25, 2017, 04:29:13 pm
Treaties and constitution are written in ink and not stone and can be changed if the political will exists.
Both parties have to agree to change a contract.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 04:39:02 pm
Both parties have to agree to change a contract.

Except when one has all the guns and political capital.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 25, 2017, 04:51:34 pm
Both parties have to agree to change a contract.

The problem is that the the treaties, reservations, and Indian Act, while they're definitely not in the interests of natives, are definitely in the interest of native leaders.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 25, 2017, 04:57:22 pm
Except when one has all the guns and political capital.

It's quite something to think that Canada should shoot its indigenous people...   that's quite an extremist view.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 05:03:44 pm
It's quite something to think that Canada should shoot its indigenous people...   that's quite an extremist view.

And your jumping to conclusions again.  You can stop lying please, it does nothing to advance your argument.

I'm not suggesting anything of that kind.  I'm saying these are the possibilities and what happens when people take things further down the rabbit hole, what the public and people do with said possibilities is up to them and they can decide how far down the rabbit hole they want to go.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 25, 2017, 05:07:04 pm
And your jumping to conclusions again.  You can stop lying please, it does nothing to advance your argument.

I'm not suggesting anything of that kind.  I'm saying these are the possibilities and what happens when people take things further down the rabbit hole, what the public and people do with said possibilities is up to them and they can decide how far down the rabbit hole they want to go.

That's gibberish.

Treaties are the law of the land, supported by the Constitution.  No one said they couldn't change, but it's a right-wing pipe dream to think they will.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 25, 2017, 05:37:43 pm
Both parties have to agree to change a contract.
Nope. Parliament can override any contract should it choose to pass legislation. This is well established in a common law. The recent cases involving union contracts and the charter do not stop the government from using the notwithstanding clause.

Treaties are more complex because they are largely ill defined nonsense where their literal meaning is of no use today and we have been at the mercy of a SCC that re-interprets them to suit whatever ideological fad is dominating the court. Those re-interpretations can be changed in the future with a different court with different priorities. This would occur without any 'consent' from the natives because that is the nature of court judgments.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 25, 2017, 05:45:36 pm
Or, you know, they were agreements reached with people because they were already living here when we decided to set up shop.
Who gives a crap? Every country in the world was populated by groups of people moving around and displacing others. Even the aboriginals did that when the moved through the Americas in waves and would had had to displace migrants from earlier waves.  Nowhere else does anyone think that entitles to a subset of the population to special rights. The only reason treaties exist in the form they do is because of the racist/feudal mentality of the people running Britain at the time. Asking that treaties be honored today is no different than insisting that a slave owner's descendants should be compensated for the property they lost.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 25, 2017, 06:01:13 pm
Quote
Asking that treaties be honored is no different than insisting that a slave owner's descents should be compensated for the property they lost.

The SCC has upheld treaties...  not slave owners' rights though.   Nice try...  bad analogy.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 25, 2017, 06:31:09 pm
The SCC has upheld treaties...  not slave owners' rights though.   Nice try...  bad analogy.
Actually, excellent analogy because it illustrates how the ideological biases of the SCC affects their rulings. The current court is obsessed with an expansive interpretation of native rights that is turning the country into an ungovernable mess. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the court 30 or 50 or 100 years from now will be so willing to trash the country because of naive assumptions that unpin the current rulings. Future courts will likely recognize that rights must apply equally to all citizens and creating two classes of citizens based on DNA is fundamentally wrong.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 25, 2017, 08:59:29 pm
The problem is that the the treaties, reservations, and Indian Act, while they're definitely not in the interests of natives, are definitely in the interest of native leaders.
So is that supposed to be some sort of silly backhanded way of trying to suggest the treaties that were subsequently broken were created ny Natives themselves? Surely you gest!
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 09:26:32 pm
That's gibberish.

Treaties are the law of the land, supported by the Constitution.  No one said they couldn't change, but it's a right-wing pipe dream to think they will.

Pipe dream now, but if the debt gets too high the will of the people may change
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 12:08:51 am
Pipe dream now, but if the debt gets too high the will of the people may change
The debt got so high under Harper the will of the people did change.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on February 26, 2017, 01:13:56 am
Future courts will likely recognize that rights must apply equally to all citizens and creating two classes of citizens based on DNA is fundamentally wrong.

Excellent point, inheritance rights simply allow propagation of class difference. When your parents die, all their property reverts to the state.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 04:57:08 am
The debt got so high under Harper the will of the people did change.

People got sick of Harper.  He had the deficit slayed and any debt he incurred was the cost of stayin in power in 2008.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 06:59:00 am
People got sick of Harper.  He had the deficit slayed and any debt he incurred was the cost of stayin in power in 2008.
He TRIED to balance the budget by robbing the contingency fund and selling the governments GM stocks. Both one timer desperate attempts. Yep, people really did get sick of Harper.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 08:17:12 am
He TRIED to balance the budget by robbing the contingency fund and selling the governments GM stocks. Both one timer desperate attempts. Yep, people really did get sick of Harper.

And Martin balanced the budget by pillaging ei, what if it.  Budget was still balanced and it wasn't desperate attempts as the budget was brought back to balance over time.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on February 26, 2017, 10:48:45 am
Even with the projection of deficits until 2050, our debt to GDP ratio is set to decline to 21% or GDP, which is within the optimal range (anything below 25%).  It's not a problem.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 26, 2017, 11:48:17 am
Excellent point, inheritance rights simply allow propagation of class difference. When your parents die, all their property reverts to the state.
You seem to miss the point entirely. With normal property inheritance CAN be taxed and or restricted by parliament as you suggest. With aboriginal rights this is not allowed. The fact that aboriginals are entitled to 'inherited rights' that cannot be taxed or changed by parliament means we have two classes of citizens in the country. This is morally wrong and no different from apartheid in South Africa where the aboriginals, instead of whites, get the special rights that the majority does not enjoy.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 26, 2017, 12:08:12 pm
Quote
...no different from apartheid in South Africa where the aboriginals, instead of whites, get the special rights that the majority does not enjoy.

Looking at the REALITY of what occurs in Canada, this statement is actually crazy and bizarre.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 01:50:50 pm
Looking at the REALITY of what occurs in Canada, this statement is actually crazy and bizarre.
A similar conclusion would apply to the REALITY of what occurs in South Africa. It's amazing some of the conclusions people jump to. Or perhaps they are led to them by the likes of Breitbart.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 26, 2017, 03:14:06 pm
Looking at the REALITY of what occurs in Canada, this statement is actually crazy and bizarre.
The trouble is you can't get out of the 'aboriginals are poor today therefore anything they demand is reasonable' mindset. It is a ridiculous mindset to have because the hope is aboriginals will not always be poor but these special rights will still exist. What happens then? Are you OK with Canadians being reduced to serfs paying taxes to line the pockets of billionaire aboriginal chiefs ruling over constitutionally protected tax free fiefdoms? Because that is the future if Canadians don't push back and start revoking some of these special rights.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on February 26, 2017, 03:18:25 pm
Looking at the REALITY of what occurs in Canada, this statement is actually crazy and bizarre.
Indigenous people in Canada are just like whites in South Africa....what with the living in slums, not having potable drinking water, having uninsulated schools that are infested with mice, getting only a fraction of medical funding as any other Canadian. Why it's just like whites in South Africa with all that special treatment.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 03:36:10 pm
The trouble is you can't get out of the 'aboriginals are poor today therefore anything they demand is reasonable' mindset. It is a ridiculous mindset to have because the hope is aboriginals will not always be poor but these special rights will still exist. What happens then? Are you OK with Canadians being reduced to serfs paying taxes to line the pockets of billionaire aboriginal chiefs ruling over constitutionally protected tax free fiefdoms? Because that is the future if Canadians don't push back and start revoking some of these special rights.
Name me one Canadian aboriginal billionaire chief. Pretty hard to get there when you make at best a little over 100k. Or do you get your info. from the likes of Levant? Then go and have an actual visit to a few actual reserves and get back to us.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 26, 2017, 03:47:47 pm
Indigenous people in Canada are just like whites in South Africa....what with the living in slums, not having potable drinking water, having uninsulated schools that are infested with mice, getting only a fraction of medical funding as any other Canadian. Why it's just like whites in South Africa with all that special treatment.
Gawd you people have a problem with reading comprehension, Try actually reading my posts and responding to the points I actually make instead of making up garbage that allows you to wallow in your suffocating echo chambers. I repeated the post to make sure you have no excuse for another response that completely ignores the point:

The trouble is you can't get out of the 'aboriginals are poor today therefore anything they demand is reasonable' mindset. It is a ridiculous mindset to have because the hope is aboriginals will not always be poor but these special rights will still exist. What happens then? Are you OK with Canadians being reduced to serfs paying taxes to line the pockets of billionaire aboriginal chiefs ruling over constitutionally protected tax free fiefdoms? Because that is the future if Canadians don't push back and start revoking some of these special rights.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 26, 2017, 04:15:02 pm
Quote
aboriginals are poor today therefore anything they demand is reasonable' mindset.

You claim that's the mindset, but you have no evidence.  There are plenty of restrictions on indigenous people's rights.  For instance, the right to hunt and fish are not absolute. 

Quote
It is a ridiculous mindset to have because the hope is aboriginals will not always be poor but these special rights will still exist. What happens then?

Great!  They won't be poor!  They'll own businesses and have clean water and have some rights that other Canadians don't have.  I'm not scared of wealthy natives any more than I am of wealthy white people.  Why should I be?  What right do they have that would make me their serf?

Your post comparing natives to S. African whites is absolutely asinine and CC's mocking of it was absolutely correct.  There is no indigenous right to apartheid.  That's a ridiculous notion.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: TimG on February 26, 2017, 05:28:12 pm
There are plenty of restrictions on indigenous people's rights.  For instance, the right to hunt and fish are not absolute.
Those are not the rights I am talking about that are problematic. The tax free status for ever increasing blocks of land is the big one especially now that the SCC has ruled that investment income earned on money deposited at a bank on reserve is tax free. 

Great!  They won't be poor!  They'll own businesses and have clean water and have some rights that other Canadians don't have.  I'm not scared of wealthy natives any more than I am of wealthy white people.  Why should I be?  What right do they have that would make me their serf?
You are missing the point. Land owned by wealthy whites can be taxed and expropriated. Land owned by wealthy aboriginals cannot. Learn the difference.

Your post comparing natives to S. African whites is absolutely asinine and CC's mocking of it was absolutely correct.  There is no indigenous right to apartheid.  That's a ridiculous notion.
Treaties being signed today for the Nisga and Tsawwassen bands look to South Africa as a model where only band members are entitled to vote on local governance bit Canadians living on the lands have to pay property taxes to the band. I see no difference from the South African model. Various aboriginal leaders have stated repeatedly that they see property taxes paid by non-aboriginals as a means to generate revenue for the band - i.e. exactly the model used by feudal lords to fund their lifestyle on the backs of serfs. Now I agree that the issue is not particularly problematic today in terms of numbers, however, if government ever actually gave the natives what they wanted it would be a huge problem. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult for governments of any strip to "reconcile" with natives. Sometimes the demands are too ridiculous for there to be any reconciliation.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 27, 2017, 11:35:33 am
You are missing the point. Land owned by wealthy whites can be taxed and expropriated. Land owned by wealthy aboriginals cannot. Learn the difference.

Regarding not this specifically, but the whole aboriginals and special rights/status etc.  These are groups of people whose ancestors settled here prior to European colonization.  These groups had no say in a country being formed around them. They didn't request to become a part of another sovereign country and the laws that governed it, another sovereign country was forcibly formed around them, often pushing them to places of economic or strategic unimportance.  Virtually every single person living in Canada besides aboriginals had a choice or their ancestors had a choice in coming to Canada and living by those rules.  Why shouldn't they be held at a different set of standards in some respects such as land or taxes?

Given the conditions they live in and the hand they've been dealt, sometimes by the ROC, who even really cares if they're tossed a bone once in a while?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 27, 2017, 01:01:22 pm
Quote
Treaties being signed today for the Nisga and Tsawwassen bands look to South Africa as a model...

Provide a cite for this claim.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on February 27, 2017, 02:22:14 pm
Regarding not this specifically, but the whole aboriginals and special rights/status etc.  These are groups of people whose ancestors settled here prior to European colonization.  These groups had no say in a country being formed around them.

And how was this different from the people who resided in any other country in the world? The history of the world is one of mass migration, often by armed groups. In fact, that was the history in Canada prior to the Europeans arriving, too.

Suppose my ancestor was a Celt, living in what later became Britain and the UK. Did I have a choice as waves of Roman, Germanic, Viking and French armed colonizers arrived to form this new country? Should I get special rights even to this day?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on March 06, 2017, 12:12:07 pm
Apparently, he's not a white supremacist, but an Islamic plant:


(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17155517_1143638582409411_6371276394439010191_n.jpg?oh=737b6efa8b3cb309d040e07e432586bc&oe=59355A44)
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: guest7 on March 06, 2017, 10:01:08 pm
Apparently, he's not a white supremacist, but an Islamic plant:


(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17155517_1143638582409411_6371276394439010191_n.jpg?oh=737b6efa8b3cb309d040e07e432586bc&oe=59355A44)

Lifetime  .344 batting average.  Probably knows what he's on about.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: kimmy on March 06, 2017, 10:18:55 pm
I wonder who decided that he is the "most divisive" Prime Minister we've ever had.  Was there a survey or something?

This seems to be a recurring theme.  The politician that "I" hate the most is clearly the "most divisive" we have ever had!

Having been raised an Albertan, by Albertan parents, I have a strong hunch that a large number of people believe that Pierre, not Justin, is the most divisive Prime Minister we've ever had.


Meanwhile in the US:  Barack Obama is accused of creating the current state of division... had nothing to do with the totally not-divisive Dubya or his totally not-divisive idea of going to war in the Middle East, and certainly the ongoing acrimony has nothing to do with Uniter in Chief Trump.  No sir. The division we see in America is because Barack Obama did not Stand With The Heroes In Blue, or something.

 -k
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on March 07, 2017, 05:20:15 pm
Kimmy, what do you expect from a Kenyan Muslim?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 08, 2017, 03:04:44 pm
I don't think Trudeau Jr is any more divisive than Chretien was. I think he's a fairly shallow, progressive schoolteacher with very little life experience to justify the absolute confidence he seems to have in his wisdom.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2017, 03:21:56 pm
Why do people attack him for being a teacher? I don't get it.

Lawyers have traditionally been considered scum and that's what the vast majority of politicians are. A teacher becomes prime minister and suddenly that's some sort of disgraceful profession? Why do conservatives always say it dripping with condescension?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2017, 03:35:53 pm
Why do people attack him for being a teacher? I don't get it.

Lawyers have traditionally been considered scum and that's what the vast majority of politicians are. A teacher becomes prime minister and suddenly that's some sort of disgraceful profession? Why do conservatives always say it dripping with condescension?

There are a couple of reasons. First, one presumes a lawyer is someone who is more worldly, more sophisticated, and has detailed knowledge of how our laws work, and the history around creating them (and thus of government). Lawyers have a reputation of being sharks, of being determined, of being cutthroat. They're treated warily. Maybe no one much likes them but their abilities are respected. Teachers... not so much. We've all met a lot of teachers who were very nice, but nice people don't do well in politics. We've also met a lot of teachers we had little respect for, who were lazy. Personally, my most recent acquaintance with teachers came when I worked for the government and we'd get summer students every May. A number of them were either in teaching school or headed there, and without exception, they required more careful supervision. They took more time off, were intellectually lazy, and did the minimum work they could get away with.

I still clearly remember one such student announcing she'd been accepted to work in a school. I, being something of a joker, said "God help those poor children." She laughed, but I was actually serious. She was a hapless incompetent with no drive or motivation who had to be constantly watched. Why did she decide to become a teacher? Because she'd get summers off and she liked kids. Meh.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2017, 03:47:19 pm
So you have some anecdotes and stereotypes about lazy teachers. And one story of someone wasn't even a teacher yet at all. But you know, she was a hapless incompetent in a job that wasn't where she wanted to be...so I guess that translates to most teachers.

It's incredible the lack of respect that teachers get, most of whom have at least 6 years of post-secondary education under their belts and are constantly engaged in new training, research programs that monitor them and their classrooms, and changes to public policy that require them to adapt.

But you know. **** them. Lazy, incompetent bastards. Those who can't, teach. /s
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2017, 05:15:33 pm
You're allowed to say ****...
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2017, 06:16:23 pm
So you have some anecdotes and stereotypes about lazy teachers.

Most of us base our decisions on our life experiences. I don't know why you think that is odd.

Quote
It's incredible the lack of respect that teachers get, most of whom have at least 6 years of post-secondary education under their belts and are constantly engaged in new training, research programs that monitor them and their classrooms, and changes to public policy that require them to adapt.

So see, there's this janitor I know. He has thirty seven years of post secondary education and nineteen doctorates. But the thing is, the floor is never cleaned properly and there's garbage overflowing the containers and the windows are filthy. But I suppose I have to respect him because of his vast education, right?

Our teachers have so much education! Okay, so kids aren't learning to read very well and know nothing about our history and can't add without a calculator, but look at all the post secondary education our teachers have!
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on March 09, 2017, 08:43:21 pm
I don't think Trudeau Jr is any more divisive than Chretien was. I think he's a fairly shallow, progressive schoolteacher with very little life experience to justify the absolute confidence he seems to have in his wisdom.
Only about 1000 times the life experience of an economist who's only real job was sorting envelopes.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2017, 08:49:59 am
You're allowed to say ****...
So are you, but for some reason the forum software censors swear words. If you click on the asterisks it brings you to a page that says censorship is required due to agreements with advertisers.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: ?Impact on March 10, 2017, 08:53:50 am
censorship is required due to agreements with advertisers.
So I guess the ad-free plan is a kind of swear jar.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2017, 08:59:40 am
In the immortal words of the late George Carlin:

****
****
****
****
****
Motherfucker
****
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2017, 09:00:32 am
lmao.... can't say the t-word for breasts but you can say motherfucker. Good job, Create-A-Forum.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2017, 09:18:53 am
So are you, but for some reason the forum software censors swear words. If you click on the asterisks it brings you to a page that says censorship is required due to agreements with advertisers.

Apparently, you can't say ****.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 10, 2017, 02:41:08 pm
Only about 1000 times the life experience of an economist who's only real job was sorting envelopes.

Seriously? What life experience did he have? Breezing through prep school, limousine drives in Europe? A trust fund life where as soon as he graduated dad's friends found him a job?

Harper, meanwhile, was learning politics from the ground up, as an assistant to an MP, then an MP, then in various behind the scenes backroom positions before running for leader (without a name and pretty face), then dragging together two hostile parties and putting a lid on internal complaints and wingnuts. Harper was vastly experienced in politics before he headed his party into an election. The same cannot be said for Trudeau.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2017, 01:36:25 am
Seriously? What life experience did he have? Breezing through prep school, limousine drives in Europe? A trust fund life where as soon as he graduated dad's friends found him a job?

Harper, meanwhile, was learning politics from the ground up, as an assistant to an MP, then an MP, then in various behind the scenes backroom positions before running for leader (without a name and pretty face), then dragging together two hostile parties and putting a lid on internal complaints and wingnuts. Harper was vastly experienced in politics before he headed his party into an election. The same cannot be said for Trudeau.
Harper was given his first job working in the mailroom im Calgary for his uncle at oil company. Plese try to keep up.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 17, 2017, 02:42:44 pm
Harper was given his first job working in the mailroom im Calgary for his uncle at oil company. Plese try to keep up.

You realize how weak that was, right?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2017, 03:15:37 pm
You realize how weak that was, right?
I realize how weak your assessment of JT's professional background is vis a vis your here Harper.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on March 20, 2017, 11:20:10 am
I realize how weak your assessment of JT's professional background is vis a vis your here Harper.

Unlike yourself, I'm not a rigid ideological zealot. I've criticized Harper on many, many occasions.
But again, unlike yourself, I have the capability to judge things realistically.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: segnosaur on April 06, 2017, 06:46:08 pm
The biggest racists and bigots in society today are groups like BLM.
Keep in mind that there are still issues with racism in society (e.g. stop and frisk laws, voter suppression laws in the U.S.), and that BLM does have value in bringing some of those issues to light.

Yes, I'm sure there are some extremists in the group, ones that fit the definition of "racist". There are probably extremists in every large political group. But I suspect many (probably most) members of BLM are simply people that see various ways that black people have been treated negatively and want it to stop. Judging an organization by the fringe elements isn't necessarily a fair way to judge the group as a whole.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on April 06, 2017, 07:16:59 pm
Keep in mind that there are still issues with racism in society (e.g. stop and frisk laws, voter suppression laws in the U.S.), and that BLM does have value in bringing some of those issues to light.

Blacks are stopped and frisked more because Blacks commit more violent crime. It's not a racist thing, it's a racial thing. Voter suppression laws aren't because Republicans hate Black people, but because Republicans hate poor people - for not voting Republican. Again, not really a racist thing. If Republicans could figure a way to stop some percentage of white pensioners who always vote Democrat from voting they'd do that too. But white pensioners don't lend themselves to easy categorization in terms of who they're going to vote for.

Quote
Yes, I'm sure there are some extremists in the group, ones that fit the definition of "racist".

Like their leaders, you mean? Certainly the Toronto one is a pretty clear and obvious racist.

Quote
But I suspect many (probably most) members of BLM are simply people that see various ways that black people have been treated negatively and want it to stop.

They have not, in my opinion, made a case that the interaction between Blacks and police shows any particular unfair treatment in terms of racism. The only thing the protests against police have accomplished, as far as I can see, is to make Blacks feel even more resentment towards all police, even more like they are victims, and even less willing to cooperate with police - which means more likely to be shot by police.

BLM have strenuously protested every single case where a Black person was shot by police, even where the cop was Black, even where the shooting was clearly justified. It seems clear to me that their agenda is anti-police, anti-white, and should be ignored, not kowtowed to, as the gay pride organizers in Toronto did not that long ago.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on April 06, 2017, 08:27:31 pm

They have not, in my opinion, made a case that the interaction between Blacks and police shows any particular unfair treatment in terms of racism. The only thing the protests against police have accomplished, as far as I can see, is to make Blacks feel even more resentment towards all police, even more like they are victims, and even less willing to cooperate with police - which means more likely to be shot by police.


Pretty obvious you have the cart before the horse there. Look at the stats of how blacks are treated compared to whites when the stop is for the simplest thing like a tail light.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on April 07, 2017, 07:50:38 am
Blacks are stopped and frisked more because Blacks commit more violent crime.
There are way WAY more white people in prison for violent crimes in Canada than black people.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: segnosaur on April 07, 2017, 12:42:39 pm
Blacks are stopped and frisked more because Blacks commit more violent crime. It's not a racist thing, it's a racial thing.
Yes, proportionally black people commit more violent crime. And proportionally white people commit more white collar crime; should we then allow police to arbitrarily investigate white people? And statistically more men are serial killers than women... should we allow the police to arbitrarily stop all men just on case one of them could be a serial killer?

Western society does have a tradition of presumed innocence. Yes, the theory may be "stop people likely to commit crime", but in practice it lead to harassment of the black population.
Quote
Voter suppression laws aren't because Republicans hate Black people, but because Republicans hate poor people - for not voting Republican.
Actually, many districts in the U.S. have actually been gerrymandered along racial lines.

From: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-texas-redistricting-20170311-story.html
Federal judges found more problems in Texas' voting rights laws, ruling that Republicans racially gerrymandered some congressional districts to weaken the growing electoral power of minorities

Quote
If Republicans could figure a way to stop some percentage of white pensioners who always vote Democrat from voting they'd do that too.
I'm sure they would. But that doesn't mean they're gerrymandering along racial lines now or in the future, which disenfranchises the black vote. Now, if your argument is "The republicans just want to stay in power" fine, but the point is, black people are still being disenfranchised.

Quote
Quote
Yes, I'm sure there are some extremists in the group, ones that fit the definition of "racist".
Like their leaders, you mean? Certainly the Toronto one is a pretty clear and obvious racist.
Yes, quite likely she is. 

Quote
They have not, in my opinion, made a case that the interaction between Blacks and police shows any particular unfair treatment in terms of racism.
Well court cases say otherwise.

Quote
BLM have strenuously protested every single case where a Black person was shot by police, even where the cop was Black, even where the shooting was clearly justified. It seems clear to me that their agenda is anti-police, anti-white, and should be ignored, not kowtowed to, as the gay pride organizers in Toronto did not that long ago.
Well that's the thing...

Yes, there will be some cases where minorities claim "police brutality" when there was none. There will also be cases when the police actually DO step over the line.  Neither situation is ideal, but given the history of racism in the U.S., it makes more sense to concentrate on problem 2 rather than problem 1, at least for the time being.

Now, things are a little different in Canada... we don't have exactly the same history of segregation that they do in the U.S., which does alter the way BLM should be viewed up here.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on April 07, 2017, 07:15:46 pm
Pretty obvious you have the cart before the horse there. Look at the stats of how blacks are treated compared to whites when the stop is for the simplest thing like a tail light.

I don't deny that happens. Police are very wary around Black men in particular. But the cause isn't because they believe Blacks are racially inferior, but because statistically they KNOW that Blacks are much more likely to be violent and shoot them. Virtually every case which has made it to the networks about Black men being shot at or shot by police has originated in them physically resisting arrest in some way. And there are uncountable other times when Black men resist arrest, though they're not shot (and no, I'm not suggesting that each of these was justified because of that).

Sam Harris, who I've been looking at a lot lately, spent some time studying police. He said that what people have to bear in mind is the overwhelming nature of their being a gun present during physical altercations. That means that since cops can't read minds, every single physical confrontation is, from the cop's perspective, a fight for life or death. Because if he loses and is overpowered - and police are NOT very well trained in fighting - the assailant can grab their gun and shoot them. Which helps cause them to draw their guns much faster than they otherwise would.

Again, not denying that Blacks rouse cop suspicion more than whites, but it's due to experience and the reality of Black crime.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on April 07, 2017, 07:19:56 pm
There are way WAY more white people in prison for violent crimes in Canada than black people.

There are WAY more white people in Canada than Black people, so there damned well SHOULD be way more in prison. But the numbers are not proportional to the numbers of Whites and Blacks (or natives) in the population. In terms of street crime, shootings, stabbings, drug dealing, that seems to be way more of an ethnic thing. Not that there aren't whites involved, but the great majority of those involved appear not to be White. I think I've pissed off some people in the last year by noting and pointing out just how many killings in Ottawa have involved Muslims (mostly Somalians and Lebanese). In Toronto, my understanding is most of the shootings are coming from the Jamaican community. There aren't as many Blacks out west, but I have noted through media reports, the number of Somalians who seem to be getting involved in drug crime in Alberta.

In the US, of course, where BLM started, the statistics are taken and published and fairly obvious. Black's are vastly more disproportionately involved in violent crime than Whites. I think I published statistics from the NYPD recently which showed over 90% of shootings had a Black suspect, for example.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on April 07, 2017, 07:33:48 pm
Yes, proportionally black people commit more violent crime. And proportionally white people commit more white collar crime; should we then allow police to arbitrarily investigate white people? And statistically more men are serial killers than women... should we allow the police to arbitrarily stop all men just on case one of them could be a serial killer?

You can't equate these different types of crime. Nobody is afraid of white collar criminals. The cops aren't going to be wary about stopping a white guy because he might actually be a fraudulent telemarketer or an embezzler. And serial killing is too rare to be meaningful as a threat. What you have to take into account is that in high crime areas (which are mostly Black) there are going to be more police posted. They are going to be getting more 911 calls, mostly from Black residents, reporting more crimes, which means they are going to be looking for violent or criminal suspects who are invariably described as Black men, going to be looking out for violent Black street gangs and their members, as well as Black drug dealers, and that there will be a strong possibility all these people will be armed.

All of that is going to permeate policing in a given city. Even those cops who don't work in those areas probably DID at one point, and they are going to be a lot more suspicious and wary of young black men than young white men. And that's not because they hate Black people. Black cops and Hispanic cops and Asian cops are going to be just as wary. Remember how some years ago Jessie Jackson said that when he hears a group of young men coming up the sidewalk behind him he feels relief when they're white? He's just going with the statistics and his experience like the cops do.

Quote
Western society does have a tradition of presumed innocence. Yes, the theory may be "stop people likely to commit crime", but in practice it lead to harassment of the black population.

I'm not saying it's not a problem and I'm not saying I don't understand the frustration of young black men who are repeatedly stopped when they've done nothing wrong. But the BLM movement is, at its base, talking about Blacks being KILLED by police. And police don't generally do that without some kind of physical aggression on the part of the suspect. And it seems to me that what all this is doing is making young Black men in particular, but also, I've seen, women, much more likely to be resistant and aggressive with police. So in actuality BLM is causing more violence against Blacks.

Then too you have the problem of Chicago. What happens when the police feel that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't? If they just lay back and refuse to put pressure on the streets and the violent crime rate and killings skyrocket, then what?

Quote
Now, if your argument is "The republicans just want to stay in power" fine, but the point is, black people are still being disenfranchised.

That IS my point, in fact. If Blacks all voted Republican, there would be no more attempts at disenfranchising them on the part of the Republicans.

Quote
Yes, there will be some cases where minorities claim "police brutality" when there was none. There will also be cases when the police actually DO step over the line.  Neither situation is ideal, but given the history of racism in the U.S., it makes more sense to concentrate on problem 2 rather than problem 1, at least for the time being.

I disagree. Because police 'stepping over the line' is not confined to minority groups. Police stepping over the line is a universal problem. Blacks might notice it more often simply because they have more interaction with police due to the Black crime rate. But police need to be reigned in and better trained in defusing situations, and in hand to hand combat, so they don't feel they have to resort to firearms as often. And we need to get every cop equipped with a camera.


Now, things are a little different in Canada... we don't have exactly the same history of segregation that they do in the U.S., which does alter the way BLM should be viewed up here.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on April 07, 2017, 09:04:50 pm
Cops, especially in the US, should be given better training on deescalating situations rather than what has been shown to be sorely lacking. Matter of fact in many cases, especially when Blacks are involved they do the opposite. And they should wear body cams. They're relatively cheap and keep everybody honest.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: cybercoma on April 08, 2017, 02:19:56 pm
There are WAY more white people in Canada than Black people, so there damned well SHOULD be way more in prison.
Yet you support stop and frisk for black people only.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on April 08, 2017, 04:19:30 pm
Yet you support stop and frisk for black people only.

Stop and frisk is something normally only done in high crime areas. I'm not aware we even do it in Canada, though stop and ... question' might be a better description here. That too is mostly in higher crime neighborhoods, and it targets those the police feel 'resemble' those who give them the most trouble. Yes, that means young Black men now, but not it's once again and cause/effect thing. It's not because police hate black skin. It's also a bit of a lazy way of meeting the people in your district/precinct/division who are most likely to be causing trouble (ie, young men), and recording where and when you met them so that if a crime happens nearby at that time detectives can look those people up and question them more thoroughly. The Son of Sam was caught largely because he had a parking ticket near one of his crimes.

Incidentally, Arabs are complaining here about being pulled over and stopped more often. Why? Because police hate Arabs? Nope. Because Arabs are involved in a lot of violent crime here. If we had a nasty white street gang in some neighborhood the police would be stopping and questioning young white men they found nearby. That's just what they do.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2017, 04:47:57 pm
Stop and frisk is something normally only done in high crime areas. I'm not aware we even do it in Canada, though stop and ... question' might be a better description here. That too is mostly in higher crime neighborhoods, and it targets those the police feel 'resemble' those who give them the most trouble. Yes, that means young Black men now, but not it's once again and cause/effect thing. It's not because police hate black skin. It's also a bit of a lazy way of meeting the people in your district/precinct/division who are most likely to be causing trouble (ie, young men), and recording where and when you met them so that if a crime happens nearby at that time detectives can look those people up and question them more thoroughly. The Son of Sam was caught largely because he had a parking ticket near one of his crimes.

Incidentally, Arabs are complaining here about being pulled over and stopped more often. Why? Because police hate Arabs? Nope. Because Arabs are involved in a lot of violent crime here. If we had a nasty white street gang in some neighborhood the police would be stopping and questioning young white men they found nearby. That's just what they do.

Unfortunately you don't have to be from a "nasty Black street" to be more likely to be pulled over, carded, or in the States even shot while you are reaching for your DL. Lets get those body cams in place.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on June 23, 2017, 07:05:25 pm
So how are Black people (most of whom haven't been IN this country more than a generation) more oppressed by this than a poor white unilingual boy like I was?

I would agree that "in this country" things were better for non whites than they were sought of the border. But to not have witnessed oppression in this country you must have been a government employee hiding in an office building all your life.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on June 29, 2017, 12:04:47 pm
I would agree that "in this country" things were better for non whites than they were sought of the border. But to not have witnessed oppression in this country you must have been a government employee hiding in an office building all your life.

No. You simply have to have an understanding of the English language and know that calling anyone living in Canada 'oppressed' is a joke.
Btw, things are better in this country for non-Whites than in any of the non-White countries, too.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Omni on October 04, 2017, 02:16:04 am
No. You simply have to have an understanding of the English language and know that calling anyone living in Canada 'oppressed' is a joke.
Btw, things are better in this country for non-Whites than in any of the non-White countries, too.

Well I'm glad to see you seeming to rise above your xenophobia. Welcoming come from away's is what Canada has always been about. Hint. some of them have different colored skin. But you don't have to hide under your bed. They are people too.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 04, 2017, 05:53:30 am
Btw, things are better in this country for non-Whites than in any of the non-White countries, too.

Unless you count first nations as non-whites.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/

I hate to be the BC of the board but that article is a wake up call.

Also what's with the hang time on those previous posts ?
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on October 04, 2017, 11:41:39 am
Unless you count first nations as non-whites.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/

I hate to be the BC of the board but that article is a wake up call.

For what?  The problem of poor statistical outcomes among natives is due to them living out in isolated and economically unsupported reserves. Put a bunch of blondes out there and they'd fare no better. Particularly with the awful and divided leadership they have and the incredibly paternalistic way government treats them and their problems.  The only way to make major changes is to force them through against the will of the comfortable and well-off chiefs who have little incentive to see the system they're on top of change in any major way, and this government is absolutely not going to do that. At most there will be more bureaucrats and more welfare money. But nothing will change under this government.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: JMT on October 04, 2017, 03:33:00 pm
For what?  The problem of poor statistical outcomes among natives is due to them living out in isolated and economically unsupported reserves. Put a bunch of blondes out there and they'd fare no better.

To a point I agree with you.  That said, the ones living in urban centres also tend to do worse on average.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 04, 2017, 05:43:43 pm
For what?  The problem of poor statistical outcomes among natives is due to them living out in isolated and economically unsupported reserves. Put a bunch of blondes out there and they'd fare no better. Particularly with the awful and divided leadership they have and the incredibly paternalistic way government treats them and their problems.  The only way to make major changes is to force them through against the will of the comfortable and well-off chiefs who have little incentive to see the system they're on top of change in any major way, and this government is absolutely not going to do that. At most there will be more bureaucrats and more welfare money. But nothing will change under this government.

None of this has anything to do with my refutation of your post.  I doubt that First Nations people in the cities are doing well either, but that also has nothing to do with your incorrect assertion.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 04, 2017, 09:53:50 pm
For what?  The problem of poor statistical outcomes among natives is due to them living out in isolated and economically unsupported reserves. Put a bunch of blondes out there and they'd fare no better. Particularly with the awful and divided leadership they have and the incredibly paternalistic way government treats them and their problems.

I can't disagree.  If natives on reserves want to maintain a pre-industrial way of life by hunting and fishing and whatever other subsistence tasks in the middle of nowhere where centers of capitalism and modern industry are thriving in cities far away from them then natives will continue to maintain pre-industrial standards of living.  Pre-Columbian indigenous ways of life shouldn't be too romanticized, because malnutrition, famine, disease, infant mortality, war, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, torture, **** etc. were common.  Life was brutal & unforgiving.  Many groups scalped humans alive for pete's sake!

The one thing natives did was move around a lot depending on where changing resources were.  They didn't stay stuck on reserves when resources weren't very good, they traveled to where they would best thrive.  They should now move to a small town/city where they can get an education and a job.  Give each of them a decent payout & a free education so they can get started more easily & let them be on their way.   Capitalism is the greatest social program in human history, it's lifted billions out of poverty & provided an incredible standard of living compared to centuries ago.  It's been 500 years & whitey ain't gonna help you much or give your land back so go help yourself, the infinite opportunities are all over this country staring you in the face.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 05, 2017, 05:46:31 am
Give each of them a decent payout & a free education so they can get started more easily & let them be on their way.   Capitalism is the greatest social program in human history, it's lifted billions out of poverty & provided an incredible standard of living compared to centuries ago.

You're dealing with broken communities, though, who have no incentive and no means of supporting themselves.  At best, you might be able to negotiate some kind of resettlement which would be expensive but save money in the long term.

Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on October 05, 2017, 12:14:33 pm
To a point I agree with you.  That said, the ones living in urban centres also tend to do worse on average.

A lot of the ones in urban centres came from reserves...
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: SirJohn on October 05, 2017, 12:17:48 pm
None of this has anything to do with my refutation of your post.

Your 'refutation' was based on my saying non-Whites were better off in Canada than in their home countries. Introducing natives to the mix makes no sense whatsoever. I assumed it was to point out what a horrible, awful racist country Canada was - in keeping with the opinion of the prime minister - and was pointing out their problems are not due to racism but to other factors.
Title: Re: Justin Trudeau: the White Supremacist
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 05, 2017, 12:50:24 pm
Your 'refutation' was based on my saying non-Whites were better off in Canada than in their home countries.

Meh.  I missed your point then.  I searched back and couldn't find it, so I'm letting it go.