Canadian Political Events

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: segnosaur on June 16, 2017, 02:25:18 pm

Title: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: segnosaur on June 16, 2017, 02:25:18 pm
Homosexual acts between 2 consenting adults were illegal up until the end of the 1960s. At that time, Trudeau Sr. decriminalized it.

Now, Trudeau is issuing a formal apology to the LGBT community and giving official pardons to those adversely affected by the law.

Its been roughly 5 decades, so there probably aren't a lot of people still alive who would have been charged under the law, so its partially a symbolic gester (although one that I think was deserved.)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/06/14/trudeau-says-legislation-apology-coming-for-past-wrongs-against-lgbt-community.html

Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 16, 2017, 03:08:42 pm
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: the_squid on June 16, 2017, 07:19:42 pm
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?

Yes, they do.

They also appreciate that they no longer have a criminal record. 
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: Moonlight Graham on June 16, 2017, 11:08:46 pm
Trudeau JR is big on symbolic gestures that don't have do anything concrete.  Pope please apologize for the residential schools while I order a study on murdered & missing aboriginal women...meanwhile studies & apologies don't feed mouths.  Thing is, these types of things create good will but have little or no political or economic cost so it's easy to do & makes you look good.

But I'll give Trudeau credit for Bill C-16 which is actually something other than words.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: jmt18325 on June 17, 2017, 12:07:23 am
Trudeau JR is big on symbolic gestures that don't have do anything concrete.  Pope please apologize for the residential schools while I order a study on murdered & missing aboriginal women...meanwhile studies & apologies don't feed mouths.  Thing is, these types of things create good will but have little or no political or economic cost so it's easy to do & makes you look good.

Indigenous people are the ones asking for the apology and the inquiry.  It obviously means a lot to them.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 18, 2017, 10:45:49 am
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?

I'm sure the practical value is very close to zero, but I think acknowledging that an injustice was done, and acknowledging the government's role in it, is important.

I also think the police participation in Toronto's Pride Parade is important, for more or less the same reason. As I understand it, police antagonism of Toronto's gay community was a foundational cause of  Toronto's gay rights marches that spurred gay rights activism across Canada.  Police participation now kind of says "never again" and "we're on your side now, bro."

As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: jmt18325 on June 18, 2017, 02:05:38 pm
As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?

There will be root causes - residential schools, systemic racism, etc.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: BC_cheque on June 18, 2017, 10:07:35 pm

As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?


What bothers me the most about MMIW is not so much who is killing the women, it's the the way police don't care to bring the perpetrators to justice.  It's similar to the Pickton murders where police allowed 50 women get killed and didn't follow up on leads because the women were mostly drug-addicted prostitutes. 

It bothers me that their lives are deemed too inconsequential to investigate and to bring closure to their families. 

Whatever they find as the biggest threat to aboriginal women, I'm sure the investigation will also show a systematic ambivalence to solve their murders. 

I'm not aboriginal so I can't speak for the community, but the ambivalence is the bigger issue as far as I'm concerned than who is doing the killing.



Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 19, 2017, 06:18:17 am
Yes, they do.

They also appreciate that they no longer have a criminal record.

I see the value of expunging the criminal record, of course.  But the apology itself seems to do more to comfort the comfortable than to help those who were wronged.  I am following a parallel issue, which is the Trudeau government's aboriginal programme and I see that it's very tempting for any government to make statements in place of taking action.  This is my concern here.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 19, 2017, 06:20:56 am
I also think the police participation in Toronto's Pride Parade is important, for more or less the same reason. As I understand it, police antagonism of Toronto's gay community was a foundational cause of  Toronto's gay rights marches that spurred gay rights activism across Canada.  Police participation now kind of says "never again" and "we're on your side now, bro."
 

Does this mean 'we will never target gays again ?' or 'we will never target groups again ?'.  If it's the former, then that's pretty narrow.  It means that LGBTQ have now graduated to the protected class, but other groups will remain outside.  If it's the latter, then will this community say something about concerns for the Black community also ?
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 19, 2017, 09:05:02 am
Does this mean 'we will never target gays again ?' or 'we will never target groups again ?'.  If it's the former, then that's pretty narrow.  It means that LGBTQ have now graduated to the protected class, but other groups will remain outside.  If it's the latter, then will this community say something about concerns for the Black community also ?

Well, hopefully the lesson learned in regard to the gay community will be remembered in other cases as well.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 19, 2017, 09:37:05 am
Well, hopefully the lesson learned in regard to the gay community will be remembered in other cases as well.
 

So why is there a backlash against BLM for protesting carding and having TPS removed from the parade ?
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 21, 2017, 11:42:00 pm
So why is there a backlash against BLM for protesting carding and having TPS removed from the parade ?

If BLM were just protesting carding, I don't think they would be facing a backlash.  First off, as many have pointed out, you don't build bridges by excluding people.  Second, the stunt last year-- holding the whole parade hostage-- was not well received.

Furthermore, the leader of BLM Toronto is an idiot. She is bringing shame and discredit upon the BLM movement. She's simply an asshole. This was discussed here in another thread:

http://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/justin-trudeau-the-white-supremacist/

I think Pride Toronto would be doing themselves a disservice in capitulating to a person like this.

Quote
But beyond that, the Toronto police has worked hard to build bridges with the gay community — by formally apologizing for the 1981 bathhouse raids, by regularly participating in Pride parades, by raising a rainbow flag outside headquarters for the first time and so forth. Not allowing them to wear their uniforms at Pride is a step backwards for the relationship.

What's more, Pride Toronto has worked hard to create safe spaces for gay LGBTQ people of colour. For instance, for the last near-20 years, Pride has hosted "Blockorama" during the weekend of the parade — an area specifically for black artists, musicians, writers, singers, dancers and regular folk to celebrate black and African cultures. By contrast, there has never been an official program for LGBTQ people during the Toronto Caribbean Carnival, formerly (and colloquially) known as "Caribana."

Indeed, I can honestly say I feel uncomfortable at Caribana due to black homophobia, which Black Lives Matter casually ignores. I am constantly looking over my shoulder in fear of being attacked, simply because I am a gay man. In recent years, I have stayed away entirely. Yet there is virtually no dialogue about anti-LGBTQ prejudice within the black community.

from "I'm black and gay. BLM Toronto doesn't speak for me."  http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/blm-pride-toronto-1.4153736

So maybe instead of trying to ruin the Pride Parade, BLM could show they give a crap about gay black people by getting down to Caribbana.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 22, 2017, 06:03:47 am
I think the protest was effective and unfortunately for Pride, the leadership agreed to the BLM demands last year.

To me it says that Pride is now part of the mainstream, and therefore a target of protest.  If carding ends, I would expect BLM to give up the exclusion of police.  Shouldn't the LGBTQ community stand in solidarity with another oppressed group ?  I think so.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 25, 2017, 02:56:55 pm
I think the protest was effective and unfortunately for Pride, the leadership agreed to the BLM demands last year.

To me it says that Pride is now part of the mainstream, and therefore a target of protest.  If carding ends, I would expect BLM to give up the exclusion of police.  Shouldn't the LGBTQ community stand in solidarity with another oppressed group ?  I think so.

The BLM-Toronto demand to exclude police isn't just about carding.  They contend that the presence of police in the parade is intimidating to non-white participants.  They have a laundry list of issues with police.


Not content with banning Toronto police from participating in the Toronto Pride parade, some are now mad that Toronto police are participating in the New York City Pride parade.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-not-at-pride-1.4176878


Yesterday, two Toronto women who wore police-like costumes to the Dyke March and carried signs supporting police and first-responders were harrassed and threatened.

Quote
Audrey Kouyoumdjian and Carol Pasternak came to the Dyke March wearing costume police hats and toting large signs that said, “My pride includes the police” and “Thank you first responders,” though they are not part of those groups.

“We’re here in support of pride for all,” said Kouyoumdjian. “We don’t want any exclusion. We want everyone to be celebrating Pride and the love of who we are.”

Two women confronted Kouyoumdjian and Pasternak about their sign before the march kicked off.

Parade-goer Martine Genier said she saw the signs spark more conflict later on.

“I saw these two people kind of tearing the signs and throwing them on the ground,” Genier said. “No actual violence (followed), but somebody was trying to push those ladies back.”
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/06/24/the-dyke-march-and-more-heres-what-you-need-to-know-on-saturday-at-pride.html

This is an article about Kouyoumdjian and Pasternak  from 2010. They're in their early sixties now, and have run a support group for a long time.

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2010/09/01/lateblooming_lesbians_find_different_kind_of_love.html

Who goes around assaulting 60 year old ladies?

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 25, 2017, 03:07:49 pm
Well, there are a lot of angry people out there.

I don't know what the list of BLM demands was, but I would wager that carding was a major problem for them.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 25, 2017, 11:52:17 pm
Well, there are a lot of angry people out there.

If they keep assaulting 60 year old ladies, they're going to meet some angry people in return.

I don't know what the list of BLM demands was, but I would wager that carding was a major problem for them.

They had a bunch of demands regarding more funding and more representation for minority groups at Pride, which fine, fair enough.  But regarding police, they'll never be satisfied. 



I notice that the Black Leopard Movement crashed the Pride Parade today, despite not being registered to attend, just to prove the point that they don't really give a crap and they know no rules apply to them.  If Pride organizers had any spine they'd decide that this stunt renders last year's agreement null and void, but they don't, so they won't.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 26, 2017, 06:38:36 am
Here are the demands:

https://blacklivesmatter.ca/demands/

I am sorry to say that I wasn't up to date on these, but then again I am not in the LGBTQ+ community, just an ally.  My feeling is that the two main paths to group conflict are violence and dialogue.  Protests are a crossroads, and if the groups want to lead to dialogue then the first step is to know the issues.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: cybercoma on June 26, 2017, 08:31:35 am
They don't want to ban police from participating as members of the LGBTQ community. They don't want them participating in uniform because that uniform is a symbol that to many people signifies brutality, violence, and oppression. It's a reasonable request given current circumstances with police in North America. You remember Rodney King and the subsequent riots? Asking that cops don't wear their uniforms in the pride parade because many people of colour don't feel safe around them is a hell of a lot better than destroying a city in protest to disgusting police behaviour.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 26, 2017, 09:30:31 am
Yes, this is an important distinction.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: jmt18325 on June 26, 2017, 11:30:54 am
They don't want to ban police from participating as members of the LGBTQ community. They don't want them participating in uniform because that uniform is a symbol that to many people signifies brutality, violence, and oppression. It's a reasonable request given current circumstances with police in North America. You remember Rodney King and the subsequent riots? Asking that cops don't wear their uniforms in the pride parade because many people of colour don't feel safe around them is a hell of a lot better than destroying a city in protest to disgusting police behaviour.

If this were a BLM march, I'd see your point.  It's not though.  Many people are having uniformed officers as a point of reconciliation and change between the police and the gay community gst they previously marginalized.  I think it really undermines that to give in to demands from a group of people whom the day is not primarily about in the face of opposition to demands form many members of the gay community, who the day is actually about.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 26, 2017, 12:31:51 pm
My understanding was that last year's protesters were from both communities.

Also, I feel that any discussion of whether the protest/result had value needs to acknowledge the demands on some level.  Otherwise, it's the same refrain that protesting shouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: kimmy on June 28, 2017, 12:39:37 am
Also, I feel that any discussion of whether the protest/result had value needs to acknowledge the demands on some level.  Otherwise, it's the same refrain that protesting shouldn't happen.

The demands were certainly acknowledged. They've been agreed to. And aside from the demand to end police participation, most of them weren't even controversial.  Does "acknowledgment" necessarily mean "agreement"?

Maybe I don't fully appreciate how awful the Toronto police are to black people. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew the whole story.  I'd certainly have no complaint about excluding a racist organization from Pride events, I just don't view the Toronto police as a racist organization. If it were the Baltimore police, I might feel differently, but maybe I am looking at the Toronto police through rose-colored glasses.  I'm under the impression that they're trying to engage positively with both the gay community and the black community. Maybe that doesn't match with the reality.

My understanding was that last year's protesters were from both communities.

Ah yes. "Intersectionality".    In today's super-competitive victimhood sweepstakes, being just one thing isn't enough. You need "intersectionality"!

This reminds me of a Daily Show skit in the 2004 US presidential election, in which a reporter (perhaps Stephen Colbert) talks with a Demographically Diversetm panel of voters. He talks to them, addressing them as "Jew", "Senior", "Female", "College Student", "Asian", and "Black Man -- oh wait, you're Black AND Christian! You're TWO things!"

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 28, 2017, 06:32:54 am
I mean anybody discussing the issue needs to acknowledge the demands.  I see too many comments on the 680 News page for example that don't say whether there's any validity to their grievances.  In effect, that just says 'don't protest my event' which isn't productive dialogue.

Pride did themselves in by agreeing to not allowing uniformed police - they agreed to it on the spot - and so had to live up to their agreement.  It seems that some of the demands have been met, so maybe next year will be different.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: cybercoma on June 28, 2017, 11:14:03 am
If this were a BLM march, I'd see your point.  It's not though.  Many people are having uniformed officers as a point of reconciliation and change between the police and the gay community gst they previously marginalized.  I think it really undermines that to give in to demands from a group of people whom the day is not primarily about in the face of opposition to demands form many members of the gay community, who the day is actually about.
So what you're saying is black protesters should shut up and know their place?
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: MH on June 28, 2017, 11:27:42 am
BLM should only protest BLM marches.

Protests shouldn't bother people, otherwise we'd have to listen to what they're saying.
Title: Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
Post by: jmt18325 on June 28, 2017, 07:16:37 pm
So what you're saying is black protesters should shut up and know their place?

I'm actually fine with BLM protesting pride.  I'm more upset with Pride giving in to the demands of BLM when it wasn't really their deal.