Author Topic: Gender Culture  (Read 166 times)

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2017, 06:14:28 am »
No, I don't think a Muslim woman's right trumps a transgender right.  I don't think any kind of religious right should trample on any type of human right.  If the law regards a transgender woman as a woman, she should have a right to exercise in a woman's facility.  If that makes any Jew, Christian or Muslim, uncomfortable, that's too bad. 

You're talking around the problem here.  Rights don't 'trump' each other but they have to be resolved when in conflict.  Religious rights already supersede human rights in several specific examples.  It seems to me, reading this paragraph, that you may not realize that.

 

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 12:03:49 am »
You're talking around the problem here.  Rights don't 'trump' each other but they have to be resolved when in conflict.  Religious rights already supersede human rights in several specific examples.  It seems to me, reading this paragraph, that you may not realize that.

The answer to this particular dilemma may well be that the hypothetical Muslim woman isn't entitled to a penis-free environment and will have to find somewhere else to exercise.  It's entirely possible that this might be the solution that places the least burden on the competing interests of all parties involved.

However, I'm curious to find out whether the gym could, if there was a demand for it, offer a penis-free environment, perhaps penis-free hours or something. 

 -k

Offline kimmy

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2017, 12:34:33 am »
No, I don't think a Muslim woman's right trumps a transgender right.  I don't think any kind of religious right should trample on any type of human right.  If the law regards a transgender woman as a woman, she should have a right to exercise in a woman's facility.  If that makes any Jew, Christian or Muslim, uncomfortable, that's too bad. 

That's my view as well, but as I mentioned earlier we live in a society where a lot of people think that reasonable effort should be made to Muslims' sensibilities-- be it dress codes, food policies, and even the desire for women-only swimming.  I'd expect the same people would support accommodating a Muslim woman who felt that being in an open-dongs environment was against her religion.

(as an aside, it's one of my pet peeves that saying "it's against my religion" somehow makes a belief more legitimate than beliefs you arrived at independently.  You don't eat meat because your conscience forbids it. Someone else doesn't eat meat because her religion forbids it. Somehow her reason for not eating meat is seen as more worthy. That annoys me.)



If the sight of a woman with a penis could cause harm to others, I could see the point, otherwise no. 

As for feeling threatened by a penis, I don't think that's why we have segregated gyms.  Having worked in gyms when I was younger, I know it's partly women wanting to work out without being watched by men, and also because they don't want to be hit on by men.

Which brings us back to the lesbian comparison.  With a lesbian, she is for sure interested in women, but a transgender woman may or may not be interested in women.  That's why I said it's more logical to be uncomfortable around lesbians even though we're not.

I don't think it's just a dislike of being hit on or being oggled. 

A lot of us were raised to feel that being naked in front of a strange man is an embarrassing, stressful, and threatening situation.

And a person with a penis is, until you personally know otherwise, a man. They can say "don't worry, I'm a trans woman", but that's probably not going to put people at ease.

The point I was making which you did not address was that 50 years ago there was just as much of a fuss put up about allowing gay women into change rooms, but as times passed most of us couldn't care less if they're working out next to us.

In due time, I believe the same thing will happen with transgender women.

And I'm still wondering whether these gym lesbians wore signs or something that told everybody that they're lesbians. I'm not aware of what fuss might have been made on that issue 50 years ago, and can't comment on it.

If somebody-- male or female-- is oggling you while you're changing, I certainly understand feeling uncomfortable with that.

 -k

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2017, 06:07:52 am »
However, I'm curious to find out whether the gym could, if there was a demand for it, offer a penis-free environment, perhaps penis-free hours or something. 


I doubt that.  The trans-protection legislation is through the Senate, I think, so soon to be law.  This will have to be tested in court.

I learned a new term yesterday - TERF.  It means trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist and is a large schism in the feminist community, apparently between generations of feminists.  The CBC ran an opinion piece from a Megan Murphy that is being absolutely roasted on my facebook discussion page as she is dismissing the law outright.  It's a rare case of the CBC going to the right of the Liberal party.

Offline MH

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Re: Gender Culture
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2017, 06:17:03 am »
Someone else doesn't eat meat because her religion forbids it. Somehow her reason for not eating meat is seen as more worthy. That annoys me.)

Somehow=religion is protected in the constitution. 

 
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A lot of us were raised to feel that being naked in front of a strange man is an embarrassing, stressful, and threatening situation.

And a person with a penis is, until you personally know otherwise, a man. They can say "don't worry, I'm a trans woman", but that's probably not going to put people at ease.

The idea of excluding men comes from providing a 'safe space' and trans women are arguably the most beaten-down and abused group that I have heard of.  The "I'm not comfortable" argument was used in the CBC argument and would simply not be stated in any other argument about rights which in itself raises questions and highlights that trans people are seen as worthy of being dismissed as aesthetic problems for the delicate.

"I am not comfortable with headscarves, it bothers me."
"I'm not comfortable eating in a restaurant with black people."

This is the argument I have read on that line of logic.

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And I'm still wondering whether these gym lesbians wore signs or something that told everybody that they're lesbians. I'm not aware of what fuss might have been made on that issue 50 years ago, and can't comment on it.

They kept people in the closet and denied reality.  I even remember women complaining about lesbians in bathrooms in university as if they could make a request to exclude them somehow.  This is how far rights have come, and it's informative to see what happens when certain classes ascend in their power.  TERFs are an example, I think.

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If somebody-- male or female-- is oggling you while you're changing, I certainly understand feeling uncomfortable with that.

Definitely and a 'no oggling' rule would address that.  Of course that's hard to enforce but it can be done.  Men harassing women is similarly difficult, ie. he said/she said.  But we are getting there.