Author Topic: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better  (Read 468 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2017, 10:31:57 am »
There's also this, showing that the corruption could be much worse (any human system is going to have problems):

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-civil-service-is-worlds-most-effective-uk-report

It's not about complacency.  Sometimes we just have to realize that we do things well.

Don't you get that 'well, it could be worse' is practically the definition of complacency?
BTW, as someone who worked for years in the federal government, it is grossly inefficient in virtually every task it does. As far as I was able to determine, the main drivers of inefficiency are (1) the career minded senior management determined that nothing go wrong, or if it does, that they not be blamed. If it costs a million dollars to ensure that they don't get blamed for some underlying wasting or stealing a thousand dollars that, in their estimation, is money well spent, and (2) the absurd promotion and career process which sees people moved all around so often (especially senior people) that by the time they actually get a grasp on how things work they're off somewhere else.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2017, 10:45:44 am »
One can always be more efficient but we have to deal with reality. We have a huge country with a small population. Per capita we are always going to be more expensive when it comes to government and infrastructure. To assume we can provide the same services as Denmark for the same money is a pipe dream.

Why? I'm confused about what this 'huge country' has to do with expenses, unless they're travel expenses. The rural population of Canada is 18% vs 16% in Finland, 20% in France, and 24% in Germany. When I worked in CRA, for example, the only additional cost of the country being spread out would be the distance we had to travel to tax centres for training and inspection - and that was only because a series of governments had spread them all over the country for political purposes (local vote getting). If they were all in Ottawa like they used to be there'd be no big additional cost. And our travel costs were tiny compared to the overall budget anyway.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 10:49:38 am »
Nicely said.

We should be leveraging our national culture of discussion to criticize our services more.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2017, 10:55:22 am »
That's not the deciding factor.  The management culture of the government seems to have a chief objective of not getting in trouble.  The willingness to take on risk is zero, and avoidance of accountability is high.

I have had to do a few projects with government, and it was impossible to get information and to get decisions made so as to move forward.  One project required the Deputy Minister, a very high profile person, to approve the schedule for us to develop a proposal.

After there was some minor news story about hospitality costs for bureaucrats, they took away signing authority for managers, and even directors only had an absurdly low threshold for signing for hospitality costs. So almost any time there was any function which required renting a hall or paying for dinner for people it had to go up to the director general, or often even to the Assistant Commissioner. My boss could sign for millions in spending but couldn't sign for a bunch of donuts and coffees for a meeting. It's all media driven, all fear of some 'waste' being exposed. In turn, that's all driven by the careerism of senior management, afraid that some piddling little thing will get them blamed and thus harm their career advancement.

When I was a pay clerk, I was once moved to a new branch and found that one of my key jobs was paying cell phone bills. That had been a fairly simple task where I had been, but not now. Now we had to photocopy every bill, attach a form addressed to the individual, and have them go over it to ensure there were no private calls. Then they had to get their bosses to sign off on it. These are all managers and directors, understand, and their bosses were all directors or higher, and we are talking about bills which averaged $35. So all these forms had to be moved around by messengers, and spend long periods in mangers/directors/directors generals in baskets, and invariably came back late, accruing penalty interest. Then they had to be paid for through an arcane method using purchase orders, rather than through a credit card. It took me  maybe a week to figure out we were spending more money on processing the invoices than for the actual invoices. But did anyone care? Nope. They found it amusing, but no way was senior management going to change it since, well, what if some manager used his cell phone to make personal calls and the media found out!?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2017, 10:58:17 am »
It's still a pipe dream to think we can provide comparable services and infrastructure at the same cost as a country with 38 times our population density. We can compare ourselves to others in how efficiently we manage our resourcea but not in the actual costs of providing infrastructure and sevices that are dictated by our geography.

Meh. It costs more per person to provide electricity due to having to lay all that wire. It costs more per person to provide roads and highways. Natural gas and train service too, I'd imagine. Anything that has to travel about will cost more. But most government services are unaffected by travel time or population density.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2017, 11:07:49 am »
From my perspective, the Trudeau government has fixed a few things and made other things less good.  Such is the constant struggle with any human system.

Offline waldo

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2017, 11:08:27 am »
You ooze complacency, and have since Boy Trudeau came to power. I am not bitter, merely dissatisfied. It has always been my nature to seek improvement in all things, to 'fix' what isn't working, or to improve what is.

huh! Even if your oft stated imaginary criticisms of Harper/Conservatives had no foundation, your dissatisfaction with anything liberal/Liberal was most consistent, bitterly so!

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2017, 11:31:41 am »
From my perspective, the Trudeau government has fixed a few things and made other things less good.  Such is the constant struggle with any human system.

What have they fixed?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2017, 01:38:40 pm »
SJ's criticisms come from the inside and are valuable.

Does anybody else not see the problem with the signing authority thing ?  This is a symptom of a bad system.  Fear of media attention means that the system will be geared towards doing very little.  There is a wealth of resources that could be unleashed here.


Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2017, 02:38:58 pm »
What have they fixed?

I doubt many of the things that I see as fixes, such as the Census, the CCG spill protection funding, and the GIS increase are seen as fixes by you.  Again, that's a function of a human system.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2017, 03:54:09 pm »
I doubt many of the things that I see as fixes, such as the Census, the CCG spill protection funding, and the GIS increase are seen as fixes by you.  Again, that's a function of a human system.

In my worst moments I actually resemble a human.

I'm not opposed to GIS increases and never had an issue with the census. Mind you, I never gave a damn about it either. It seemed to me to have become politicized to the point people who knew and cared nothing about it prior to it being made voluntary were suddenly willing to set themselves on fire over the glory of the census.

And given they've been in power for some time now that's precious little of substance accomplished.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2017, 04:05:11 pm »
SJ's criticisms come from the inside and are valuable.

Does anybody else not see the problem with the signing authority thing ?  This is a symptom of a bad system.  Fear of media attention means that the system will be geared towards doing very little. 

It's not so much media attention as the possible impact on careers. You have to remember that once you become a manager, if you're career-minded, you need to move around a lot and get your tickets punched in hopes of building up a resume to go higher. You need to manage all sorts of different resources in different areas so that you can eventually parlay that into becoming a director. Of course, all these management stints have to be clean and clear without any blemishes.

As an aside. When I become a full program officer I was put in charge of a fairly simple  program. But it took me a good two years before I would say I had mastered its complexity. This was one single, small national program. A manager might be in in charge of a dozen program managers, and have responsibility over a score of programs - or just a few really complex ones. I can't imagine how long it takes to figure them all out. But I can say that if you move to a different managerial job every two or three years you never will, really. The same constant musical chair theme continues with directors, and then directors general. By the time they start to grasp how their unit works they're on to their next ticket-punching assignment so they can build their resume. Most of these new assignments have virtually no relation to the ones they've got experience with.

The result of this is that at any given time a very high percentage of senior managers are incompetent, regardless of their actual intelligence, in that they actually know very little about what they're managing. Add in the heavy requirement for fluency in both languages, which shuts out 90% if potential candidates, and that very, very few managers or senior managers have a degree in anything related to management, and you get a bureaucracy full of mediocrities and incompetents.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2017, 05:32:16 pm »
And given they've been in power for some time now that's precious little of substance accomplished.

I didn't see much point in a more extensive list. 

Offline wilber

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2017, 05:49:48 pm »
Meh. It costs more per person to provide electricity due to having to lay all that wire. It costs more per person to provide roads and highways. Natural gas and train service too, I'd imagine. Anything that has to travel about will cost more. But most government services are unaffected by travel time or population density.

It's true that we have a comparatively much smaller tax base to provide infrastructure for a vastly larger area but it's more than just that, a country the size of Denmark can centralize a lot of facilities that we have to duplicate just because of our size. Things like defence and policing have to be spread over much greater areas.

While I don't dispute our beaurcracies have many inefficiencies, some are due to politics and therefore self inflicted. Military procurements would be a good example.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Why Canada is Able to do Things Better
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2017, 06:10:50 pm »
I didn't see much point in a more extensive list.

Because there isn't one.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum