Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 2338 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2017, 10:49:58 pm »
So... my thoughts on the subject were just that... thoughts.  Based on intellectual ideas of rights and so on.  Until I read my friend's posts on her life before she changed.

Laws and economics can sometimes be ends in themselves, but they exist to make lives better overall.  Trans people have very painful lives.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2017, 02:20:46 am »
I've responded in the Gender Culture thread.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2017, 10:44:38 am »
BLM-TO says their duty is to make black gay people welcome at Pride...  do they not have a similar duty to black gay people when it comes to making them welcome at Caribana?

BLM-TO presented Pride with numerous demands that had nothing at all to do with the police so clearly they don't feel their mandate is limited to protesting the police.  Many of BLM-TO's demands centered around providing more funding and more space for gay black performers and artists at Pride. Have they ever asked Caribana for more space for gay black performers?  Considering Caribana's history with bringing Jamaican dancehall bands that sing about killing homos, and considering the Caribbean community's notorious homophobia, I kind of doubt Caribana is exactly living up to BLM-TO's standards for making gay blacks welcome...

To me it seems like they picked Pride because it's an easy target, and creates the appearance that their big talk of being great allies is self-serving.

 -k

Yes, as I agreed, BLM has other schools of thought, but their principle message is police brutality against blacks.  When they disrupted Pride last year it was police *participation* in the parade.  Police do not participate in Caribana. 

The key words for BLM movement here are police and blacks, anything LGBTQ is an afterthought. 

Again, I don't agree that BLM is doing a great thing disrupting the parade, I even thought it was a bit over the top TBH. 

But for a movement that started on the notion of police brutality against black, I can clearly see the difference between disrupting a parade with police participation and Caribana no matter what schools of thought they've veered onto thereafter.

The police presence at Caribana is on guard, not dancing and waving rainbow flags. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2017, 11:31:15 am »
No, I don't.  I often wear men's cologne and sometimes men's dress shirts... I'm the most trans person I know.

 -k

Do you wear checked lumberjack shirts?  ;D
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2017, 02:30:46 pm »
It's called "buffalo plaid".

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2017, 09:50:44 am »
Do you wear checked lumberjack shirts?  ;D
I have several plaid work shirts, but I only wear them when working outdoors on cool days.

 -k
{ ps-- No, I don't have a flat-top haircut.  :P }
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2017, 01:24:18 pm »
Yes, as I agreed, BLM has other schools of thought, but their principle message is police brutality against blacks.  When they disrupted Pride last year it was police *participation* in the parade.  Police do not participate in Caribana. 

The key words for BLM movement here are police and blacks, anything LGBTQ is an afterthought. 

Again, I don't agree that BLM is doing a great thing disrupting the parade, I even thought it was a bit over the top TBH. 

But for a movement that started on the notion of police brutality against black, I can clearly see the difference between disrupting a parade with police participation and Caribana no matter what schools of thought they've veered onto thereafter.

The police presence at Caribana is on guard, not dancing and waving rainbow flags.

It sounds to me like the short version is that BLM-TO only cares about providing gay blacks with inclusiveness and safety when it gives BLM-TO an opportunity to protest the police.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2017, 10:22:15 am »
What if some people didn't want the participation of Black men because they felt intimidated and endangered by groups of Black men? Would it be okay to ban them?
What if context never mattered to any discussion?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2017, 10:35:16 am »
What if context never mattered to any discussion?

What if there was a hill, and it rained so the slope was slippery ?  What then ?  What if a real problem needed to be discussed but people brought in non-analogous hypotheticals to confuse the dim ?  What if ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2017, 04:43:35 pm »
What if context never mattered to any discussion?

How is the context different?

It's interesting that everyone argues against stereotyping, against profiling, against presuming the individual is guilty of the alleged  sins of the group, but only when the group is a member of some sort of protected group. When the group is, say, the police, or Catholic clergy, then this is not supposed to apply? That's not logical.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2017, 04:46:37 pm »
What if there was a hill, and it rained so the slope was slippery ?  What then ?  What if a real problem needed to be discussed but people brought in non-analogous hypotheticals to confuse the dim ?  What if ?

What if there was a snobby elitist progressive who liked to talk in vague generalities in order to sneer at participants in conversations because he thought it beneath him to descend from his lofty heights to discuss issues in a way which could be construed as mere ordinary?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2017, 08:16:02 pm »
What if there was a snobby elitist progressive who liked to talk in vague generalities in order to sneer at participants in conversations because he thought it beneath him to descend from his lofty heights to discuss issues in a way which could be construed as mere ordinary?

We don't know any people like that. 

I have never heard anyone who called something 'boring' described as a snob.  Usually it's the opposite, ie. a plebian calling a foreign film, the opera, or classical music 'boring'.  Strange.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2017, 08:37:25 pm »
How is the context different?

It's interesting that everyone argues against stereotyping, against profiling, against presuming the individual is guilty of the alleged  sins of the group, but only when the group is a member of some sort of protected group. When the group is, say, the police, or Catholic clergy, then this is not supposed to apply? That's not logical.


I think this is an interesting point.

In another thread women who don't wish to share locker-rooms and showers with biologically male individuals are called "radical".   In this thread it's taken to be obvious that the presence of police in the parade is chilling and oppressive to non-white individuals.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2017, 09:01:35 pm »

I think this is an interesting point.

In another thread women who don't wish to share locker-rooms and showers with biologically male individuals are called "radical".   In this thread it's taken to be obvious that the presence of police in the parade is chilling and oppressive to non-white individuals.
 

Uhhhh... I don't think anybody here called such women 'radical' per se.  You looked up the term and said it probably applied to you, and I explained what TERF meant but nobody used the term to call women a name.

But SJ is right - people can't rail on about generalizations, and then use them on people THEY don't like.  It's wrong and people should admit it... except...

- some generalizations can be proven, so they are true but still impolite... except...
- some generalizations are true and complimentary, so you CAN say those... except...
- you still can't generalize outside your group like to say a certain ethnic group is good at math... except
- if it's in an academic setting, say, and the insights are true and positive....

Anyway... those of us who can deal with context don't freak out so much about a little generalizing, but we don't find it to be mind-blowingly brilliant when somebody posts that black people commit more crime.  It's not a breath of fresh air to post stuff like that....


Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2017, 09:37:23 pm »
Uhhhh... I don't think anybody here called such women 'radical' per se.  You looked up the term and said it probably applied to you, and I explained what TERF meant but nobody used the term to call women a name.

There seems to be a judgment made that Megan Murphy and other women who say they're feminists but aren't down with showering with chicks with dicks are "trans-exclusionary radicals".   As it happens, I fall into that group as well.  I don't personally feel like a radical, but who knows. Maybe living out here in the sticks has left me out of touch with the mainstream.

But the message seems to be that you cisgendered white women are the establishment now, the privileged, and you need to give up your hard-won victories to make way for the underprivileged.

But SJ is right - people can't rail on about generalizations, and then use them on people THEY don't like.  It's wrong and people should admit it... except...

- some generalizations can be proven, so they are true but still impolite... except...
- some generalizations are true and complimentary, so you CAN say those... except...
- you still can't generalize outside your group like to say a certain ethnic group is good at math... except
- if it's in an academic setting, say, and the insights are true and positive....

Anyway... those of us who can deal with context don't freak out so much about a little generalizing, but we don't find it to be mind-blowingly brilliant when somebody posts that black people commit more crime.  It's not a breath of fresh air to post stuff like that....

I don't think Sir John's point is to pursue an argument of "black people commit more crime". 

I think his point is that the argument "(group X) should be excluded from the parade because they make (group Y) feel uncomfortable" falls apart pretty quickly when you start experimenting with different values of X and Y.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City