Author Topic: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad  (Read 424 times)

Offline segnosaur

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Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« on: June 16, 2017, 02:25:18 pm »
Homosexual acts between 2 consenting adults were illegal up until the end of the 1960s. At that time, Trudeau Sr. decriminalized it.

Now, Trudeau is issuing a formal apology to the LGBT community and giving official pardons to those adversely affected by the law.

Its been roughly 5 decades, so there probably aren't a lot of people still alive who would have been charged under the law, so its partially a symbolic gester (although one that I think was deserved.)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/06/14/trudeau-says-legislation-apology-coming-for-past-wrongs-against-lgbt-community.html

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Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 03:08:42 pm »
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?

Offline the_squid

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 07:19:42 pm »
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?

Yes, they do.

They also appreciate that they no longer have a criminal record. 

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 11:08:46 pm »
Trudeau JR is big on symbolic gestures that don't have do anything concrete.  Pope please apologize for the residential schools while I order a study on murdered & missing aboriginal women...meanwhile studies & apologies don't feed mouths.  Thing is, these types of things create good will but have little or no political or economic cost so it's easy to do & makes you look good.

But I'll give Trudeau credit for Bill C-16 which is actually something other than words.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 12:07:23 am »
Trudeau JR is big on symbolic gestures that don't have do anything concrete.  Pope please apologize for the residential schools while I order a study on murdered & missing aboriginal women...meanwhile studies & apologies don't feed mouths.  Thing is, these types of things create good will but have little or no political or economic cost so it's easy to do & makes you look good.

Indigenous people are the ones asking for the apology and the inquiry.  It obviously means a lot to them.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2017, 10:45:49 am »
I wonder about the value of these apologies.

Do people appreciate them?

I'm sure the practical value is very close to zero, but I think acknowledging that an injustice was done, and acknowledging the government's role in it, is important.

I also think the police participation in Toronto's Pride Parade is important, for more or less the same reason. As I understand it, police antagonism of Toronto's gay community was a foundational cause of  Toronto's gay rights marches that spurred gay rights activism across Canada.  Police participation now kind of says "never again" and "we're on your side now, bro."

As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?


 -k

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2017, 02:05:38 pm »
As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?

There will be root causes - residential schools, systemic racism, etc.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2017, 10:07:35 pm »

As for the MMIW...  I have a strong hunch that by far the biggest threat to aboriginal women is aboriginal men.  If the inquiry reaches that finding... is that going to make people happy?


What bothers me the most about MMIW is not so much who is killing the women, it's the the way police don't care to bring the perpetrators to justice.  It's similar to the Pickton murders where police allowed 50 women get killed and didn't follow up on leads because the women were mostly drug-addicted prostitutes. 

It bothers me that their lives are deemed too inconsequential to investigate and to bring closure to their families. 

Whatever they find as the biggest threat to aboriginal women, I'm sure the investigation will also show a systematic ambivalence to solve their murders. 

I'm not aboriginal so I can't speak for the community, but the ambivalence is the bigger issue as far as I'm concerned than who is doing the killing.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 10:17:53 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 06:18:17 am »
Yes, they do.

They also appreciate that they no longer have a criminal record.

I see the value of expunging the criminal record, of course.  But the apology itself seems to do more to comfort the comfortable than to help those who were wronged.  I am following a parallel issue, which is the Trudeau government's aboriginal programme and I see that it's very tempting for any government to make statements in place of taking action.  This is my concern here.

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 06:20:56 am »
I also think the police participation in Toronto's Pride Parade is important, for more or less the same reason. As I understand it, police antagonism of Toronto's gay community was a foundational cause of  Toronto's gay rights marches that spurred gay rights activism across Canada.  Police participation now kind of says "never again" and "we're on your side now, bro."
 

Does this mean 'we will never target gays again ?' or 'we will never target groups again ?'.  If it's the former, then that's pretty narrow.  It means that LGBTQ have now graduated to the protected class, but other groups will remain outside.  If it's the latter, then will this community say something about concerns for the Black community also ?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 09:05:02 am »
Does this mean 'we will never target gays again ?' or 'we will never target groups again ?'.  If it's the former, then that's pretty narrow.  It means that LGBTQ have now graduated to the protected class, but other groups will remain outside.  If it's the latter, then will this community say something about concerns for the Black community also ?

Well, hopefully the lesson learned in regard to the gay community will be remembered in other cases as well.

 -k

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 09:37:05 am »
Well, hopefully the lesson learned in regard to the gay community will be remembered in other cases as well.
 

So why is there a backlash against BLM for protesting carding and having TPS removed from the parade ?

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 11:42:00 pm »
So why is there a backlash against BLM for protesting carding and having TPS removed from the parade ?

If BLM were just protesting carding, I don't think they would be facing a backlash.  First off, as many have pointed out, you don't build bridges by excluding people.  Second, the stunt last year-- holding the whole parade hostage-- was not well received.

Furthermore, the leader of BLM Toronto is an idiot. She is bringing shame and discredit upon the BLM movement. She's simply an asshole. This was discussed here in another thread:

http://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/justin-trudeau-the-white-supremacist/

I think Pride Toronto would be doing themselves a disservice in capitulating to a person like this.

Quote
But beyond that, the Toronto police has worked hard to build bridges with the gay community — by formally apologizing for the 1981 bathhouse raids, by regularly participating in Pride parades, by raising a rainbow flag outside headquarters for the first time and so forth. Not allowing them to wear their uniforms at Pride is a step backwards for the relationship.

What's more, Pride Toronto has worked hard to create safe spaces for gay LGBTQ people of colour. For instance, for the last near-20 years, Pride has hosted "Blockorama" during the weekend of the parade — an area specifically for black artists, musicians, writers, singers, dancers and regular folk to celebrate black and African cultures. By contrast, there has never been an official program for LGBTQ people during the Toronto Caribbean Carnival, formerly (and colloquially) known as "Caribana."

Indeed, I can honestly say I feel uncomfortable at Caribana due to black homophobia, which Black Lives Matter casually ignores. I am constantly looking over my shoulder in fear of being attacked, simply because I am a gay man. In recent years, I have stayed away entirely. Yet there is virtually no dialogue about anti-LGBTQ prejudice within the black community.

from "I'm black and gay. BLM Toronto doesn't speak for me."  http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/blm-pride-toronto-1.4153736

So maybe instead of trying to ruin the Pride Parade, BLM could show they give a crap about gay black people by getting down to Caribbana.

 -k

Offline MH

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 06:03:47 am »
I think the protest was effective and unfortunately for Pride, the leadership agreed to the BLM demands last year.

To me it says that Pride is now part of the mainstream, and therefore a target of protest.  If carding ends, I would expect BLM to give up the exclusion of police.  Shouldn't the LGBTQ community stand in solidarity with another oppressed group ?  I think so.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Trudeau to Gay People: Sorry, my bad
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 02:56:55 pm »
I think the protest was effective and unfortunately for Pride, the leadership agreed to the BLM demands last year.

To me it says that Pride is now part of the mainstream, and therefore a target of protest.  If carding ends, I would expect BLM to give up the exclusion of police.  Shouldn't the LGBTQ community stand in solidarity with another oppressed group ?  I think so.

The BLM-Toronto demand to exclude police isn't just about carding.  They contend that the presence of police in the parade is intimidating to non-white participants.  They have a laundry list of issues with police.


Not content with banning Toronto police from participating in the Toronto Pride parade, some are now mad that Toronto police are participating in the New York City Pride parade.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-not-at-pride-1.4176878


Yesterday, two Toronto women who wore police-like costumes to the Dyke March and carried signs supporting police and first-responders were harrassed and threatened.

Quote
Audrey Kouyoumdjian and Carol Pasternak came to the Dyke March wearing costume police hats and toting large signs that said, “My pride includes the police” and “Thank you first responders,” though they are not part of those groups.

“We’re here in support of pride for all,” said Kouyoumdjian. “We don’t want any exclusion. We want everyone to be celebrating Pride and the love of who we are.”

Two women confronted Kouyoumdjian and Pasternak about their sign before the march kicked off.

Parade-goer Martine Genier said she saw the signs spark more conflict later on.

“I saw these two people kind of tearing the signs and throwing them on the ground,” Genier said. “No actual violence (followed), but somebody was trying to push those ladies back.”
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/06/24/the-dyke-march-and-more-heres-what-you-need-to-know-on-saturday-at-pride.html

This is an article about Kouyoumdjian and Pasternak  from 2010. They're in their early sixties now, and have run a support group for a long time.

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2010/09/01/lateblooming_lesbians_find_different_kind_of_love.html

Who goes around assaulting 60 year old ladies?

 -k