Author Topic: On Canadian Values  (Read 9858 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2017, 05:22:43 pm »
So you're saying three quarters of Canadians don't understand Canadian values? Are you open to the possibility YOU don't understand Canadian values? Maybe you're spending too much time watching CBC.
I don't know what 3/4 you're talking about, but I'm willing to bet it's pretty close to 3/4 of Canadians who think Leitch is batshit crazy.

Offline JMT

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2017, 06:02:13 pm »
So you're saying three quarters of Canadians don't understand Canadian values? Are you open to the possibility YOU don't understand Canadian values? Maybe you're spending too much time watching CBC.

Probably at least that many. 

We as Canadians value (or claim to) diversity and freedom of political/religious/nonsense opinion.  Any interview that puts that into question is un-Canadian, full stop.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2017, 06:12:36 pm »
I wonder why the senate would waste time recommending things that already are in place?

I wonder why, in all the dozens of articles that have been written about this, including many condemnations of the suggestion, in all the television panel shows discussing it, none of whom agreed with it, not a single person ever say "You know, we already do this". Not once. Somehow, you seem privy to information no one else in Canada has. Perhaps you'd care to share it. In the meantime, this is from an email Lietch sent out.



But is our immigration system doing the best that it can?

Do we meet the people who want to come here before they arrive?

Do we have an opportunity to understand what supports, if any, a person will need to help with integration?

Or are we simply making decisions based on a three minute review of documentation?

The little bit of information we have about how the immigration system actually works comes only from the persistent research of Dr. Victor Satzewich, a sociologist at McMaster University in Hamilton.

That's because our immigration system is a "black box". It is a nameless and faceless bureaucracy where questions are many and answers are few.

In the introduction to his book, Dr. Satzewich describes trying to gain access to Canada's immigration offices. It was a labyrinthine ordeal involving a man identified as Mr. X, chance encounters, and months of waiting.

Dr. Satzewich eventually got the access he required to write his book, Points of Entry: How Canada's Immigration Officers Decide Who Gets In, and, as a result, we now have valuable insight into how our immigration system works.

By and large our immigration system works well, but there are some things about the system that are concerning.

Immigration officers meet only a handful of the people whose applications they process. The result is the loss of "opportunities to assess credibility and risk" (page 216).

Testimony before the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence tells us that "only between nine and fifteen percent of immigrants receive an interview with a visa officer before they come to Canada" (page 14).

That means that, in a year like last year, when more than 300,000 immigrants were admitted to Canada, only about 30,000 people were interviewed by a trained immigration official.

The reason for the lack of interviews is the focus on achieving predetermined quotas. The immigration bureaucracy, led by immigration ministers of different stripes, has put greater importance on the number of people who are admitted to Canada each year, rather than ensuring that those who are admitted will integrate well into our communities.

As one of the immigration officers interviewed by Dr. Satzewich said:
 

When all you interview are the problematic cases, that influences your view of the applicants. It's easy to say they are all bad, and what happens is that you start refusing for all the wrong reasons. But the positive side effect of the quality assurance is that you get to see the good cases and the bad cases. When you bring someone in for an interview, you can tell right away, you get a gut feeling that there is something wrong here, or that it's good. At the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether you would want this person to be your neighbour. It's hard to put a finger on it but when you strongly feel that there is something about an applicant, there usually is. The positive thing about the quality assurance is that it helps an officer get around the idea that ‘everyone's a liar' attitude. It's easy to become cynical. You become immune to the hardship of local conditions (pages 135-136).
 

Another immigration officer quoted by Dr. Satzewich said:
 

There are so many things we miss. We only interview if we are leaning towards a refusal. We don't interview good applicants. This can make an officer sour. We don't get the sense of nation building that we used to have. It cuts into job satisfaction. There is no way of talking to clients, we don't counsel them anymore. In face-to-face circumstances, we are only dealing with likely refusals. This can lead to the development of a negative mindset. You start the whole interview process with a set of concerns that you have identified on the basis of the paper screening. The old way, you could come in having a visa, and in the interview you could talk yourself out of it! Young officers have not done that kind of interview. They tend to have an enforcement mentality. The system is set up to kind of sour your worldview (page 135).
 

This is not healthy. Not for the immigration officers, not for the applicants, and not for the country.

The focus on quotas is also a problem.

Canada's immigration officials are pressured to make decisions on at least seventy-five files a day meaning decisions are made in about three minutes — not including the time spent writing up notes.

As Dr. Satzewich writes, "time and productivity pressures provided the overarching context for decision making" (page 196). One immigration officer said, "Sometimes you have to overlook things to get the program numbers. … Risk management means closing your eyes" (page 136). Another officer said: "If we didn't have the time demands that are on us, the refusal rate would be much higher. If I had enough time, I would at least triple my refusal rate" (page 136).

A deputy manager in an overseas office put it this way:
 

We have become number freaks. We have to meet our targets, within +/- 3 percent. But you don't want to exceed your target either. If you reach your processing target by September, you can't issue any more visas, and that is a problem. And if you go over your target … they will say next time you can process the target numbers with fewer resources, or increase targets (page 134).
 

This is a problem. It is a problem because the priority is placed on numbers rather than individuals and some people are, in the words of immigration officers themselves, being allowed into the country that would otherwise not be admissible. The targets also keep out those who might otherwise be admissible because their application came to the top of the pile after the target visas had all been allocated.

We need a healthier approach to immigration — one that keeps the best interests of the country, the applicants, and the immigration officials in mind.

This is what I am hearing from Canadians.

That is why, when I become prime minister, I am committed to ensuring that all immigrants, refugees, and visitors to Canada receive a face-to-face interview with a trained immigration official.

This is in-line with the recommendation of the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence. The committee called for a pilot project and I will ensure that this is implemented across the board.

This is not a radical suggestion. In fact, it was the procedure as recently as the year 2000.

To quote Dr. Satzewich: "Before the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act was introduced, nearly all applicants for a permanent resident visa were interviewed by an officer, no matter how strong or weak their paperwork" (page 170).

Interviews allow the opportunity to determine credibility through, as Dr. Satzewich writes, "verbal responses…demeanour and body language: how individuals enter an interview booth, how they answer questions, and how they address an officer's concerns…" (pages 55-56).

These interviews were conducted as part of the language proficiency test, which was conducted in-person, face-to-face, with immigration officers.

I will restore this procedure to ensure that we meet the people who want to come here.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2017, 09:26:30 pm »
I wonder why, in all the dozens of articles that have been written about this, including many condemnations of the suggestion, in all the television panel shows discussing it, none of whom agreed with it, not a single person ever say "You know, we already do this". Not once. Somehow, you seem privy to information no one else in Canada has. Perhaps you'd care to share it. In the meantime, this is from an email Lietch sent out.

Perhaps a little reading will bring you up to speed.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/welcome/overview/security.asp
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:39:53 pm by jmt18325 »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2017, 03:02:44 pm »
Perhaps a little reading will bring you up to speed.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/welcome/overview/security.asp

You realize we were talking about immigration, not refugees?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2017, 03:11:25 pm »
You realize we were talking about immigration, not refugees?
Same procedures apply.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2017, 02:42:00 pm »
Same procedures apply.

No, they don't. I've already posted you information taken from a book by a very immigration friendly academic, as well as information about how a senate commission proposed interviews. I assume you simply ignored it all.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2017, 09:17:13 pm »
Despite our disagreements, you and I are bound by the common ties of citizenship to the idea of a tolerant and welcoming country. Citizenship binds you and me to the project of peace, order, and good government—and this project is indifferent to color or religion.

-----

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dear-kellie-leitch-an-open-letter-on-canadian-values_us_58bef438e4b05386ddc0ca6b?ir=Canada+Politics&

That line right there - that is far more Canadian than any of Leitch's "Canadian Values".

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2017, 11:36:37 am »
Despite our disagreements, you and I are bound by the common ties of citizenship to the idea of a tolerant and welcoming country. Citizenship binds you and me to the project of peace, order, and good government—and this project is indifferent to color or religion.

-----

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dear-kellie-leitch-an-open-letter-on-canadian-values_us_58bef438e4b05386ddc0ca6b?ir=Canada+Politics&

That line right there - that is far more Canadian than any of Leitch's "Canadian Values".

The problem is where we are bringing in so many people who do not feel those ties or tolerance, who in fact, openly and defiantly reject them on favour of the values of their old countries, which are tightly bound up with their religion.

Also supremely unimpressed with a whiny immigrant complaining about 'racist rhetoric' where none was present in the suggestion we test the values of potential immigrants. Maybe he reads this in simply because the values of most Pakistanis, as revealed in polls, are such that any value test would disqualify most of them from every coming here.

And, I might add, his parents instilled such a love of Canada in him that he's at Yale law school. In case you didn't know it, Yale teachers American law, not Canadian law, so I have to presume he plans on making his life in the US not Canada.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:41:27 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2017, 12:09:01 pm »
The problem is where we are bringing in so many people who do not feel those ties or tolerance, who in fact, openly and defiantly reject them on favour of the values of their old countries, which are tightly bound up with their religion.
Time and again interviews and research shows that immigrants are actually more loyal to the country than native-born citizens. Don't let that get in the way of your narrative that the Muslim hoards are here to destroy "your" country.

Offline JMT

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2017, 01:01:41 pm »
The problem is where we are bringing in so many people who do not feel those ties or tolerance, who in fact, openly and defiantly reject them on favour of the values of their old countries, which are tightly bound up with their religion.

Also supremely unimpressed with a whiny immigrant complaining about 'racist rhetoric' where none was present in the suggestion we test the values of potential immigrants. Maybe he reads this in simply because the values of most Pakistanis, as revealed in polls, are such that any value test would disqualify most of them from every coming here.

And, I might add, his parents instilled such a love of Canada in him that he's at Yale law school. In case you didn't know it, Yale teachers American law, not Canadian law, so I have to presume he plans on making his life in the US not Canada.

Going to Yale is a terrible crime.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2017, 02:56:58 pm »
Going to Yale is a terrible crime.

Pretty cheap reply. If you're taking law at Yale you don't plan on living in Canada.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2017, 02:57:40 pm »
Time and again interviews and research shows that immigrants are actually more loyal to the country than native-born citizens. Don't let that get in the way of your narrative that the Muslim hoards are here to destroy "your" country.

When they abandon their backward old-country cultural beliefs let me know.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2017, 03:02:10 pm »
Pretty cheap reply. If you're taking law at Yale you don't plan on living in Canada.

The Governor General went to Harvard Law....

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2017, 03:02:51 pm »
Time and again interviews and research shows that immigrants are actually more loyal to the country than native-born citizens. Don't let that get in the way of your narrative that the Muslim hoards are here to destroy "your" country.

I'm not.  If England play Canada at anything, I want England to win.  Even Ice Hockey.
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