Author Topic: On Canadian Values  (Read 1312 times)

Offline jmt18325

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On Canadian Values
« on: March 07, 2017, 05:21:35 pm »
We finally get Kellie Leitch's vaunted list of Canadian values.  It's rather short, and not all that inclusive:

http://ipolitics.ca/2017/03/06/leitch-reveals-what-she-wants-to-ask-during-canadian-values-screening/

Hey, at least if you follow these, you don't have to worry about being deported...errr, what?

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Offline jmt18325

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 05:22:39 pm »
BTW, does Kellie believe that men and women are equal?  Are gays and lesbians equal to straight people?  Are trans gendered people equal to those of the usual genders?  So many questions for Kellie.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 05:25:21 pm »
That also brings up an interesting question - what are Canadian values?

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 05:55:44 pm »
Why can't the potential immigrants just lie?  It's so, so easy to get around this.  It would do nothing substantial of value, and we'd waste a lot of money on these interviews.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Offline dia

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 07:33:28 pm »
Clearly Leitch thinks immigrants are at the intellectual level of a 5-year-old.   

She's said her screening could also apply to white supremacists:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-values-test-could-apply-to-white-supremacists-leitch/article33854629/



“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 07:59:44 pm »
“Are men and women equal, and entitled to equal protection under the law?”

“Is it ever ok to coerce or use violence against an individual or a group who disagrees with your views?”

“Do you recognize that to have a good life in Canada you will need to work hard for yourself and your family, and that you can’t expect to have things you want given to you?”



lmfao She's kidding, right?

Offline Omni

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 09:14:24 pm »
“Are men and women equal, and entitled to equal protection under the law?”

“Is it ever ok to coerce or use violence against an individual or a group who disagrees with your views?”

“Do you recognize that to have a good life in Canada you will need to work hard for yourself and your family, and that you can’t expect to have things you want given to you?”



lmfao She's kidding, right?
Her "questionnaire" so far seems as much of an embarrassment for her as her latest speech. And apparently she is in second place in the leadership race. JT must be having a giggle too.

Offline Peter F

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 09:18:00 pm »
“Are men and women equal, and entitled to equal protection under the law?”

“Is it ever ok to coerce or use violence against an individual or a group who disagrees with your views?”

“Do you recognize that to have a good life in Canada you will need to work hard for yourself and your family, and that you can’t expect to have things you want given to you?”



lmfao She's kidding, right?

No, I think she's actually serious. Man oh man.
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Offline Omni

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2017, 09:40:10 pm »
No, I think she's actually serious. Man oh man.

I am quite sure she is and let's see what's next. I assure you I have my first 3 answeres already figured out.

Offline kimmy

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 02:34:58 am »
I assume that nobody objects to the questions themselves, and are laughing because the answers are patently obvious.

For the sake of argument, I'd suggest that this might be why Ms Leitch thinks its important that these issues be discussed in person with a human agent, as opposed to answered in a multiple choice questionaire.

Once upon a time I traveled to the US, and while having a routine Q&A with the customs lady, I noticed while looking in my purse for my ID that my bank card was missing. The customs agent immediately picked up on my sudden anxiety and the change in the tone of the interview was noticeable. She immediately took a much more aggressive tone and began to press me for details on everything I said. I felt defensive and somewhat flustered for the remainder of the interview and only later even figured out why she had become aggressive in her questioning.

I mention my own experience by way of pointing out that it's a lot harder to lie to a human than it is to lie to a multiple choice questionaire. A human can read your expressions as you talk. A human can ask follow-up questions. I mean, everybody knows the right and wrong things to say to a border agent too, yet a surprising number of people screw up.

Is it bad that she wants people to talk to a trained interviewer before coming into the country?

 -k

Offline Omni

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 03:26:00 am »
I assume that nobody objects to the questions themselves, and are laughing because the answers are patently obvious.

For the sake of argument, I'd suggest that this might be why Ms Leitch thinks its important that these issues be discussed in person with a human agent, as opposed to answered in a multiple choice questionaire.

Once upon a time I traveled to the US, and while having a routine Q&A with the customs lady, I noticed while looking in my purse for my ID that my bank card was missing. The customs agent immediately picked up on my sudden anxiety and the change in the tone of the interview was noticeable. She immediately took a much more aggressive tone and began to press me for details on everything I said. I felt defensive and somewhat flustered for the remainder of the interview and only later even figured out why she had become aggressive in her questioning.

I mention my own experience by way of pointing out that it's a lot harder to lie to a human than it is to lie to a multiple choice questionaire. A human can read your expressions as you talk. A human can ask follow-up questions. I mean, everybody knows the right and wrong things to say to a border agent too, yet a surprising number of people screw up.

Is it bad that she wants people to talk to a trained interviewer before coming into the country?

 -k
As you just pointed out the answers are patently obvious, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to know what to say. And as you also point out, your anxiety you say you demonstrated in the case you mentioned had nothing to do with your admissibility as a cross border traveller (why didn't you simply explain you just noticed your card was missing?) but im amy case, I can see these silly questions she suggests asking will be pretty much ineffective and possibly downright unfair. 

Offline ?Impact

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 06:00:02 am »
I mention my own experience by way of pointing out that it's a lot harder to lie to a human than it is to lie to a multiple choice questionaire. A human can read your expressions as you talk.
Yes, there is certainly advantages of a human interview. I think your own experience however demonstrates that it is easy for the interviewer to pick up on totally unrelated/irrelevant issues and misunderstand them.

If Leitch had said we need to invest in improving our screening process then I think she would get a lot of support. The statement screen for Canadian Values raises more questions than it answers, and that is why people are turning on Leitch.

Offline Peter F

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 06:20:46 am »
I assume that nobody objects to the questions themselves, and are laughing because the answers are patently obvious.

For the sake of argument, I'd suggest that this might be why Ms Leitch thinks its important that these issues be discussed in person with a human agent, as opposed to answered in a multiple choice questionaire.

...

I mention my own experience by way of pointing out that it's a lot harder to lie to a human than it is to lie to a multiple choice questionaire. A human can read your expressions as you talk. A human can ask follow-up questions. I mean, everybody knows the right and wrong things to say to a border agent too, yet a surprising number of people screw up.

Is it bad that she wants people to talk to a trained interviewer before coming into the country?

 -k

I do not dispute that the vetting process would include questioning - mostly just routine stuff. But Leitch isn't merely suggesting that something that is already in place be put in place. She has given us three examples of questions that aren't dealing with unmasking terrorists or criminals but the questions are aimed to expose people that supposedly don't share Canadian Values. I think its ridiculous since even the questions she proposes won't  get her the results she thinks they will. She has no sense of nuance or empathy for that matter.

Example 1: “Are men and women equal, and entitled to equal protection under the law?”
   Which law? Canadian law not sharia or (i guess) Roman Civl Law? Canadian law then...well Yes, in Canadian Law (so the interviewee has been told since she doesn't actually live in Canada to experience it) men and women are equal and entitled to equal protection under the law.
  That is not a question about Canadian values. That is a civics question about the law in Canada.  It may be that really what Leitch means is does the interviewee agree with the statement 'men and women are equal and entitled to equal protection under the law'.   If that is what she meant then she still has it wrong because many Canadians don't actually agree with that statement. They agree initially but then come up with many exceptions to the general rule. Gays, immigrants, poor people, pedophiles, anyone named Khadr , natives and on an on ad nauseam. 
Such ideas are also Canadian Values which is why there are debates in the house of commons over gay marriages; abortion; equal pay legistlation; motions on Islamophobia; the Lords Prayer in schools etc etc. 
 
Example 2: “Is it ever ok to coerce or use violence against an individual or a group who disagrees with your views?”
Everyone immigrant in the world will answer No to that question. She thinks its a Canadian Value. Yet many Canadians, while agreeing to that statement, would then come up with exceptions to that general rule. If their views are a threat to their way of life like feminism, gays, muslims, atheists, the chinese language, hell even the French. Then there are all sorts of exceptions. Thus to disagree with the statement by assuming exceptions, is also a Canadian Value. Again its why there are debates and votes in the House of Commons because its a closely held Canadian Value that one gets to disagree.

Example 3: “Do you recognize that to have a good life in Canada you will need to work hard for yourself and your family, and that you can’t expect to have things you want given to you?”

Again, who would answer that stock Conservative Values loaded question negatively? why no one of course. But it is not a Canadian Value and has nothing to do with Canadian Values. Everyone would agree with the statement but then there'd also be all the exceptions to the rule: Tax breaks, Student loans, Health-care, subsidized housing, Lotteries !.  Hell, even Leitch would have a raft of exceptions to that particular supposed Canadian value.

It all boils down to Leitch , amongst others, assuming her values are Canadian values and then losing an election when standing up to promote those values. But I don't think she is thoughtful enough to ever wonder why that happened.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 06:23:27 am by Peter F »
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Offline dia

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 08:45:34 am »


Is it bad that she wants people to talk to a trained interviewer before coming into the country?

 -k

Other than the cost being prohibitive, I don't think there's a problem with interviewing people who want to come into Canada.  I seem to recall reading some years ago that Isreal is very good at identifying 'problem' people due to their observational skills, and that their security surpassed the US's more mechanized and rule-bound system. 

And has already been pointed out, for some people the very fact of being questioned by someone in authority might make their anxiety skyrocket regardless of how closely their values matched the 'rest of us' and trigger the interviewer.  This could be especially true of people who are coming from a country in which any contact with authority is something to be avoided and feared. 
“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.”
Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays

Offline the_squid

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Re: On Canadian Values
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 08:49:27 am »
She's an MD, and yet she can't cure her own stupidity....

I don't actually disagree that we need to weed out undesirable, backwards thinking people....   but 3 yes/no questions is sheer idiocy.