Author Topic: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour  (Read 2120 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2017, 08:23:18 pm »
You are assuming that this privy council would agree with your definition of 'common sense'.  What if they did not, and instead agreed that Canada could not simply ignore their own Charter?

Trudeau has to get re-elected and I bet he/his advisors had a clue there'd be backlash about this.  Still, they did it anyway.

But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people. And Trudeau doesn't get blamed for them any more than Harper did. Sure I might not agree with the privy council. But we do know they would, at least, be considering both common sense, and what the will of the people is, when they make their decisions. It's not like they would overrule the SC lightly. I can think of a few cases, though, which would have saved us a bloody fortune, like the Singh decision, as one example. Overruling that wouldn't have upset many, and would have saved us untold billions of dollars.
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Offline JMT

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2017, 10:31:41 pm »
But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people.

Sometimes that's a great thing.  Sometimes, in cases like this, where it's simply about right and wrong as our society has determined, we need an independent arbiter with a clear head.  The people get to make the laws through their representatives.  Our system was set up this way so that those laws are respected by the people, even when it seems inconvenient.

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2017, 11:29:45 pm »
But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people. And Trudeau doesn't get blamed for them any more than Harper did. Sure I might not agree with the privy council. But we do know they would, at least, be considering both common sense, and what the will of the people is, when they make their decisions. It's not like they would overrule the SC lightly. I can think of a few cases, though, which would have saved us a bloody fortune, like the Singh decision, as one example. Overruling that wouldn't have upset many, and would have saved us untold billions of dollars.

If continuing to fight the court decision would have cost us millions more, then Trudeau showed common sense by settling for less now.   Imagining that a privy council would have made a decision that you like better, because they rely on voter goodwill, seems a bit odd since you regularly bemoan your belief that Liberals are voted in by stupid and lazy people who think only of the freebies that they'll get.  Why would you expect that those same voters would force a privy council to make decisions that you like more times than not? 

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2017, 09:43:35 am »
Sometimes that's a great thing.  Sometimes, in cases like this, where it's simply about right and wrong as our society has determined, we need an independent arbiter with a clear head.  The people get to make the laws through their representatives.  Our system was set up this way so that those laws are respected by the people, even when it seems inconvenient.

The problem is the SC is politicized by the nature of their appointment process. And the nature of the Charter has freed senior judges from needing to be accountable to anyone for their decisions. To suggest that these are simply learned scholars of law deciding things in an unbiased fashion is naive. These are political and ideological  people who have their own beliefs about how society should be structured.  McLachlan has been a particular advocate of judge-made law (even more than her predecessor), of judges not abiding by the written law but freely 'interpreting it' according to their own ideological biases, preferences and prejudices.

As an example, the SC has, on several occasions, changed the law on the basis of 'times and values have changed'. I'm sorry, but that should not be up to judges. If times have changed and Canadian values have changed, then their democratically appointed representatives are free to change an archaic law which no longer suits them. Judges ought to abide by a law until and unless parliament changes it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:54:31 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2017, 09:46:31 am »
Imagining that a privy council would have made a decision that you like better, because they rely on voter goodwill,

Not just because they rely on voter goodwill, but because they can bring an element of practicality into their decisions the SC ignores. For example, the Sing decision, which granted full Charter rights to all refugees, has turned our refugee determination process into an agonizingly slow, drawn out, and hideously expensive farce where phony refugees go through years of expensive appeals (all of which we pay for) before we can boot them out. A privy council law council might just overrule that, saying it was impractical and not in Canada's interest. They likewise might have overruled the courts on the subject of native oral histories, dismissing them as completely unreliable (which they are, of course) and not be used as evidence.

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  Why would you expect that those same voters would force a privy council to make decisions that you like more times than not?

As unreliable as the largely indifferent public is, especially given the third-rate nature of Canada's media, democracy is the only brake we have on governmental stupidity, criminality and arrogance. And the SC, as constituted, has NO brake or restraints whatsoever. They can quite literally make any sort of decision they want on the basis of whyever they want to make it, and cannot be challenged.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:52:11 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2017, 06:28:49 pm »
The problem is the SC is politicized by the nature of their appointment process. And the nature of the Charter has freed senior judges from needing to be accountable to anyone for their decisions. To suggest that these are simply learned scholars of law deciding things in an unbiased fashion is naive. These are political and ideological  people who have their own beliefs about how society should be structured.  McLachlan has been a particular advocate of judge-made law (even more than her predecessor), of judges not abiding by the written law but freely 'interpreting it' according to their own ideological biases, preferences and prejudices.

In fact, interpretation of the Constitution is the sole purview of the Supreme Court.  They're doing their job, even if you don't like it.
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Offline Peter F

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2017, 10:47:07 pm »
Not just because they rely on voter goodwill, but because they can bring an element of practicality into their decisions the SC ignores. For example, the Sing decision, which granted full Charter rights to all refugees, has turned our refugee determination process into an agonizingly slow, drawn out, and hideously expensive farce where phony refugees go through years of expensive appeals (all of which we pay for) before we can boot them out. A privy council law council might just overrule that, saying it was impractical and not in Canada's interest. They likewise might have overruled the courts on the subject of native oral histories, dismissing them as completely unreliable (which they are, of course) and not be used as evidence.

  I do not think it 'practical' that Canadian law treat folks within its jurisdiction with differing levels of rights. Some get legal rep, some don't. That strikes me as very impractical.  And regarding oral histories, they are not completely unreliable, of course, and can be used as evidence - See testimony in courtrooms.


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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2017, 12:08:46 pm »
In fact, interpretation of the Constitution is the sole purview of the Supreme Court.  They're doing their job, even if you don't like it.

No. Interpreting used to mean examining the fine print, and using that, in terms of Parliament's desires when it was written, to decide laws. It now means interpreting laws in light of just about anything a judge decides. For example, nowhere in law written by parliament does it accept oral history. In fact, it explicitly refuses to accept hearsay evidence. But the judges decided to change that for natives. That isn't interpreting the legislation. That's changing the rules.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2017, 12:12:14 pm »
  I do not think it 'practical' that Canadian law treat folks within its jurisdiction with differing levels of rights.

And yet we do that anyway. Some people get to vote, others don't. Some can consume alcohol, others can't. There are requirements for certain government jobs that you be a citizen.

Practicality would be putting all refugee applicants into camps, giving them very quick hearings, and then deporting any who fail. But the courts won't allow that. Instead we have them here for years on welfare while they launch expensive appeal after appeal. And by the time they've run through them all years have passed and they launch fresh appeals based on their having established ties here, perhaps married, and that it would now be inhumane to remove them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline JMT

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2017, 01:49:17 pm »
No. Interpreting used to mean examining the fine print, and using that, in terms of Parliament's desires when it was written, to decide laws. It now means interpreting laws in light of just about anything a judge decides. For example, nowhere in law written by parliament does it accept oral history. In fact, it explicitly refuses to accept hearsay evidence. But the judges decided to change that for natives. That isn't interpreting the legislation. That's changing the rules.

The foundational documents that give indigenous people their rights are Constitutional.  Like it or not, their oral traditions are part of our legal foundations.  We've only come to recognize it now.

Offline JMT

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2017, 11:00:45 am »
The foundational documents that give indigenous people their rights are Constitutional.  Like it or not, their oral traditions are part of our legal foundations.  We've only come to recognize it now.

What you mean is the judges decided to ignore the law and to make their own law, due entirely to their ideological sympathy for the native cause. There is no way parliament would have written into law that whatever some native says his grandfather was told by HIS grandfather should be taken as evidence.

There is also no other situation where a court will be guided by what a signee of a contract might have thought they were signing, vs what was in the contract. We won't accept this for a contract signed today, but the courts will allow a person today to testify that a hundred years ago the party which signed the contract thought it meant something different - based on oral history. It's absurd.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:03:19 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2017, 01:45:36 pm »
The perspective of the medic who saved Khdr's life:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/medic-account-omar-khadr-1.4218853

Interesting read.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2017, 10:41:29 pm »
Interesting read.

Sure. You're a medic, you save a life if you can.


And unfortunately, I have to agree that the government failed its duty to Omar.


That said, I hate the Khadrs. I hope they take the $10.5 million and **** off to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or whatever shithole country suits their shitbag ideology.

 -k
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Offline poochy

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Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2017, 04:42:53 pm »
i think im less bothered by the settlement than i am by the belief some seem to have that our constitution is an infallible document and things are the way they are because they have to be.   

Has anyone explained the cozy link between the LPC and this family?  Why did Chretien get his father out of a Pakistani prison while under suspicion of terrorism in the first place and did they go out of their way to ignore Omar because of this embarrassing link?  I really got a kick out of Goodale trying to lay blame with the conservatives when he was in the government that violated Khadrs rights, it smells of something.

I don't really expect our media to investigate the LPC but you do have to wonder.  In the end we are responsible, we have to follow our own laws and our constitution, but that comes up pretty short from the same thing as saying that our Constitution was ever meant to cover this sort of situation.  Excluding the child soldier aspect, this is a family of bad people, I feel no loyalty towards them, and they only seemed to have had any towards us when it was advantageous to them, our constitution wasn't designed with that in mind.