Author Topic: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington  (Read 190 times)

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 07:14:33 pm »
Ones that actually have power, be it military or economic, and the willingness to use it. The UK, France, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, Japan. These are all nations which regularly use their economic or military power to influence other countries around the world.

Canada has neither economic nor military power to wield. It's world influence is no greater than that of Sweden or Ireland.

How many aircraft to those countries regularly deploy to the Baltic?  How many bank branches do they have in central and South American?  How many ships do they have deployed in the Caribbean?  Off the West coast of Central America?  In the Atlantic and Caribbean?  How many troops do they have in Ukraine?  Latvia?  Iraq?  How many breakthroughs in AIDS and Ebola research have they made lately? made lately?   Canada is among the worlds top 20 countries in almost every category. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2017, 10:58:33 am »
How does Japan have more influence than Canada?  Be specific.

The Japanese government is run by Japan's industry. It acts in furtherence of that industry around the world, in cooperation with industry. It uses both its foreign aid budget, guarantees for loans, and favorable trade incentives to clear the way for its industries to obtain resources from third world countries under very favorable conditions for Japanese industry. Nor is it above offering bribes.

I know you will suggest lots of countries do this, which is certainly true. But the Japanese are far and away more single-minded and ruthless than Canada could ever be.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 03:49:01 pm »
The Japanese government is run by Japan's industry. It acts in furtherence of that industry around the world, in cooperation with industry. It uses both its foreign aid budget, guarantees for loans, and favorable trade incentives to clear the way for its industries to obtain resources from third world countries under very favorable conditions for Japanese industry. Nor is it above offering bribes.

I know you will suggest lots of countries do this, which is certainly true. But the Japanese are far and away more single-minded and ruthless than Canada could ever be.

You haven't said how, as a middle power, they have influence on world events.

You're also wrong about Japan's foreign aid.

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Of the seven broad categories the index considers, Japan scores very poorly (14th or worse) in all but one (see chart). The only category where it makes a decent showing, landing in the middle of the pack, is in technology—a questionable measure that tries to capture global spillover effects from a country's R&D.

Start with aid. Although Japan gives large dollops of money each year, it also collects large debt payments from poor countries. Lenders have a right to be repaid, but this makes its net contribution look far less impressive than that of other rich countries. Nor are Japan's private citizens very generous: government aid aside, they give less than a cent each to poor countries. Only citizens in the southern European trio of Greece, Italy and Portugal are more miserly.

http://www.economist.com/node/2656985

I do agree that under Harper, Canada definitely lost influence as a middle power.  He was atrocious at international diplomacy.  It will take several more years to get back to the position Canada held in the 80s and 90s.


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 04:12:47 pm »
You haven't said how, as a middle power, they have influence on world events.

They have influence on other countries where they choose to have it, for their own reasons. The Japanese have never shown much interest in world events which don't affect them.

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I do agree that under Harper, Canada definitely lost influence as a middle power.

Agree with whom? Yourself? Canada has no more or less influence in the world under Harper than under Chretien. Which is to say we have had very little for the last twenty years.

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He was atrocious at international diplomacy.

No, he just didn't make it a personal popularity contest. If a lot of Muslim countries didn't like that he supported Israel, he didn't care.
Maybe he just had more self confidence than Trudeau, who seems to constantly require reassurance that people like him.

Offline TimG

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 04:15:46 pm »
You're also wrong about Japan's foreign aid.
The economist dismisses the huge loans that Japan makes but that is euro-centrism at its worst. Investing in a country means you run the risk of never getting paid back and such loans are better described as charity when given to countries with extremely poor credit risks.  In many cases the loans are forgiven which does not count as aid under the Economist's rules but it should be. Also the Japanese do not distinguish between loans to dodgy regimes and aid which means they think their country is doing a lot.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:33:30 pm by TimG »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 04:17:00 pm »
How many aircraft to those countries regularly deploy to the Baltic?  How many bank branches do they have in central and South American?  How many ships do they have deployed in the Caribbean?  Off the West coast of Central America?  In the Atlantic and Caribbean?  How many troops do they have in Ukraine?  Latvia?  Iraq?  How many breakthroughs in AIDS and Ebola research have they made lately? made lately?   Canada is among the worlds top 20 countries in almost every category.

And how many countries give a shit what Canada wants or says or does? We couldn't get even get Belgium to sign a trade agreement with us until the EU beat up on them. Power means influence. We have no influence around the world. We never have had. That so many liberals liked to puff out their chests with pride is merely a matter of people deluding themselves.

I'm reminded of a time, back in Mulroney's day, when he was leading the charge against apartheid. He was visiting one of the 'front line states' at the time, I forget for what sort of conference. I think it was Zambia. Anyway, there was a Canadian journalist in a cell in that country at the time, had been there for most of a year without charge. He was still there when they left. Mulroney didn't dare utter a peep about him and he and his people avoided responding when the press tried to bring it up.

Influence? Riiiight. We couldn't even tell a puny little nothing country like Zambia to let him go or charge him.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:20:41 pm by SirJohn »

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2017, 05:29:05 pm »
And how many countries give a shit what Canada wants or says or does? We couldn't get even get Belgium to sign a trade agreement with us until the EU beat up on them. Power means influence. We have no influence around the world. We never have had.

Like I said - you're wrong, and repeating it won't change that.  We have more power than Sweden, and less than the UK.  That isn't none.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 11:48:59 am »
Like I said - you're wrong, and repeating it won't change that.  We have more power than Sweden, and less than the UK.  That isn't none.

Please do demonstrate where and when this power was used to Canada's benefit.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 01:26:35 pm »
Please do demonstrate where and when this power was used to Canada's benefit.

I don't know what power you think it is that a middle power has.  Canada has some power and influence.  There are a lot of other countries that have some in the same class. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 03:46:23 pm »
I don't know what power you think it is that a middle power has.  Canada has some power and influence.  There are a lot of other countries that have some in the same class.

If you can't then why are so many people on the Left so desperate to get it back?

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2017, 10:46:49 pm »
When he got back to the Trump table, the President told Mr. Mulroney that “relationships are just great between Canada and the United States. Justin had a terrific trip down to Washington.”

Mr. Mulroney has taken on the role of Mr. Trudeau’s unofficial emissary to the United States, using his long-time personal connection to Mr. Trump and other members of his cabinet, as well as the President’s outside business advisory councils, to help shield Canada from America First protectionist policies.

Mr. Mulroney has developed a close bond with Mr. Trudeau despite belonging to different political parties. Pierre Trudeau and Mr. Mulroney were sworn enemies. Mr. Mulroney has never forgiven the elder Trudeau for his intervention that helped kill the Meech Lake accord, which Mr. Mulroney had championed to address Quebec’s isolation from the 1982 Constitution.

Since Mr. Trump’s election, Mr. Mulroney and former Canadian ambassador to Washington Derek Burney have acted as informal advisers on how to handle the Republican-led Congress and the Trump White House and cabinet secretaries.

A source said the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has said in private that the White House has found it easy and professional to work with Mr. Trudeau’s team of advisers that include principal secretary Gerald Butts, chief of staff Katie Telford and Canadian Ambassador to the United States David MacNaughton.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-receives-warm-welcome-at-trumps-mar-a-lago/article34085505/

For all of you that underestimated Trudeau - he is absolutely on top of this.  He is handling Trump better than any other world leader.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2017, 11:44:48 pm »
When he got back to the Trump table, the President told Mr. Mulroney that “relationships are just great between Canada and the United States. Justin had a terrific trip down to Washington.”

Mr. Mulroney has taken on the role of Mr. Trudeau’s unofficial emissary to the United States, using his long-time personal connection to Mr. Trump and other members of his cabinet, as well as the President’s outside business advisory councils, to help shield Canada from America First protectionist policies.

Mr. Mulroney has developed a close bond with Mr. Trudeau despite belonging to different political parties. Pierre Trudeau and Mr. Mulroney were sworn enemies. Mr. Mulroney has never forgiven the elder Trudeau for his intervention that helped kill the Meech Lake accord, which Mr. Mulroney had championed to address Quebec’s isolation from the 1982 Constitution.

Since Mr. Trump’s election, Mr. Mulroney and former Canadian ambassador to Washington Derek Burney have acted as informal advisers on how to handle the Republican-led Congress and the Trump White House and cabinet secretaries.

A source said the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has said in private that the White House has found it easy and professional to work with Mr. Trudeau’s team of advisers that include principal secretary Gerald Butts, chief of staff Katie Telford and Canadian Ambassador to the United States David MacNaughton.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-receives-warm-welcome-at-trumps-mar-a-lago/article34085505/

For all of you that underestimated Trudeau - he is absolutely on top of this.  He is handling Trump better than any other world leader.

All Trudeau had to do was smile and nod and not pull a Lester Pearson. I'm pretty sure any Canadian delegation wanting access to the USA market will be pretty easy to work with.  It's also a lot easier dealing with a business friendly administration

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2017, 12:19:11 am »
All Trudeau had to do was smile and nod and not pull a Lester Pearson. I'm pretty sure any Canadian delegation wanting access to the USA market will be pretty easy to work with.  It's also a lot easier dealing with a business friendly administration

It's impossible for you to give him credit, I take it?