Author Topic: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?  (Read 1195 times)

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2017, 11:43:22 am »
Does anyone seriously think the far faster British system is because they spend, like twice as much on their court system as we do?

Canadians put up with too much incompetence.  If you point it out to anyone left-of-centre you can be shouted down.

I am trying a new tack with these discussions: I will point out that the government could do MORE if they were more efficient.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2017, 11:54:41 am »
Canadians put up with too much incompetence.  If you point it out to anyone left-of-centre you can be shouted down.

I am trying a new tack with these discussions: I will point out that the government could do MORE if they were more efficient.

We are you trying a new 'tack'? I've always felt the best thing to do is simply write what I think and believe and why and let the conversation flow from there. Sometimes that pisses people off, but that's their problem.

Aside and off topic: I am old enough to remember when I had to go to the hospital ER at 2 in the morning because I banged my chin and it wouldn't stop bleeding. I was seen immediately by the doctor, went to be X-rayed (no waiting) went back and got stitched up, and was out the door within thirty minutes.

I don't know precisely over what time period this level of efficiency and effectiveness declined to its present state, where one could expect to sit in the waiting room for six or seven hours before seeing a doctor. Maybe it happened so slowly people didn't notice. But nowadays, nobody even seems to complain.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:05:15 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2017, 10:18:36 pm »
Another example of the kind of fine, trustworthy individuals who should be given the authority to act as judge, jury, and executioner.
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A New Jersey state trooper has admitted to tampering with evidence and falsifying records to cover up his habit of pulling over women to ask them on dates, and has agreed to forfeit his job, authorities say.

...

Authorities say Prather would pull over female motorists without reason and would go through their cellphones, after asking them to unlock their phones. He'd go through personal information and photos, and in some cases, copied intimate photos and videos of the women, prosecutors say. He'd solicit the women to go on a date with him or give him their phone numbers.

Prather also allegedly turned off his microphone during the pick-ups and saying it malfunctioned, and falsely reported the gender of the drivers he pulled over to disguise the fact he stopped a high number of women, according to authorities.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Trooper-Pleads-Guilty-Tampering-Evidence-Pulling-Over-Women--Traffic-Stops-Ask-Them-on-Dates-443782963.html


I think we should clear up the court dockets by just giving people like Officer Prather big metal helmets and declaring them Judges.




 -k
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Offline JBG

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2017, 09:21:14 pm »
I was reading a British news site shortly after that horrible fire in the Greenfell  public housing block. A man who opened up one of the body bags to take a picture and put it on his facebook page was arrested that night, and by the next day was already convicted and sentenced to three months. That is literally unimaginable in Canada. Here, we're just starting a trial of those two Ontario Liberal party staffers who destroyed documents in 2011!

Does anyone seriously think the far faster British system is because they spend, like twice as much on their court system as we do?
He probably took a plea deal. A trial would never happen that fast. No witnesses or judge lined up.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2017, 06:35:00 pm »
He probably took a plea deal. A trial would never happen that fast. No witnesses or judge lined up.

Most of our criminal cases wind up in plea deals, and I don't think the judge who sentenced him would agree to one if he wasn't represented.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JBG

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2017, 07:33:57 pm »
Most of our criminal cases wind up in plea deals, and I don't think the judge who sentenced him would agree to one if he wasn't represented.
Representation may not be a problem, if a public defender was in the courtroom on other matters. At some level I like quick dispositions of matters, rather than having them lollygag on Court dockets forever.
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2017, 10:43:23 pm »
From another thread:

Seen it, commented on it before. I said at the time that not only should all four of them be fired but so should the RCMP officers who defended them, including the 'use of force' sergeant who testified at the inquest that they followed procedure. I was also bloody mad at all the mess at the G20, not just the cops who arrested people or assaulted people for no justifiable reason, but all the others who testified afterward that the didn't see anything, or didn't see what happened.

Why does this happen? Because it's the nature of a paramilitary organization which cherishes esprit de corps and machismo to see itself as elite, and to see itself as a brotherhood (and sisterhood), as us against 'them' whoever the them is. I have heard that nobody really understands police like police, and because of that they tend to gravitate towards each other even outside of work, as friends. As such, we see numerous instances where cops cover up for what other cops are doing, or even lie on their behalf. I don't know what to do about that other than equipping them all with cameras they can't turn off, and firing anyone whose official report conflicts with his camera.

West Point has an honor code which says that you'll be kicked out not simply for lying, cheating or stealing, but if you fail to report another cadet for violating the honor code  in some way. I don't know if the police are taught something similar when they're in training and don't know if it works, but we should certainly hold police to at least the same code. And we don't. For example, when a police officer is being investigated for shooting someone by an external agency (in Ontario it's the SIU) they usually refuse to cooperate and often refuse to be interviewed. The cop in Minneapolis who shot Justine Damon has, to this day, refused to give any statement as to what happened, and he's still employed, even if on suspension.

This is not just a matter of low ranking officers either. In Ontario, the SIU has complained about a lack of cooperation from Ontario police forces on a variety of investigations. As far as I'm concerned this should absolutely be a legal requirement.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/02/22/star_exclusive_police_ignore_sius_probes.html

I agree with all of this. 

And that's the one complaint I have about the Black Lives Matter stance on the issue... this is actually a problem that's far more complicated than "they hate us cuz we black".  That's such an easy argument to dismiss. People look at the number of non-black victims, and they look at the number of black cops caught participating in this violence, and they think "BLM is wrong. BLM is full of it."

BLM isn't wrong, BLM is just too hung up on one aspect of the issue to talk about the real problem.  The real problem isn't that cops are racists who hate blacks. Police violence against black victims is a major outcome of the problem, but racism isn't the root cause of it.  The root cause is that cops have created a culture where they're not accountable.   


It bothers me when people take the stance that "why should I care what happened to Freddie Gray? He was a dumb thug. He had nothing to contribute to society. If the cops didn't kill him, somebody else would have."  His life might not have been much, but it's the only one he had and he didn't deserve to lose it just because some cop decided to "teach him a lesson".
There's a possibility that maybe he would have discovered The Flying Spaghetti Monster in prison, got his life straightened out, maybe written wonderful poetry or created an outreach to get kids out of crime or done something else worthwhile with his life.   But leaving that aside, giving the cops a pass on this because Freddie Gray was a deadbeat loser gives them a pass on this culture of entitlement and non-accountability they've created.

If you give the cops a pass for killing a loser like Freddie Gray, you're also giving them a pass for trying to cover up the death of Robert Dziekanski. You're giving this guy a pass for kicking a completely compliant citizen right in the face.



If you give them a pass for accidentally killing Freddie Gray, you're giving them a pass for everything else they do.

 -k
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Offline JBG

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2017, 10:58:26 pm »
From another thread:

I agree with all of this. 

And that's the one complaint I have about the Black Lives Matter stance on the issue... this is actually a problem that's far more complicated than "they hate us cuz we black".  That's such an easy argument to dismiss. People look at the number of non-black victims, and they look at the number of black cops caught participating in this violence, and they think "BLM is wrong. BLM is full of it."

BLM isn't wrong, BLM is just too hung up on one aspect of the issue to talk about the real problem.  The real problem isn't that cops are racists who hate blacks. Police violence against black victims is a major outcome of the problem, but racism isn't the root cause of it.  The root cause is that cops have created a culture where they're not accountable.   


It bothers me when people take the stance that "why should I care what happened to Freddie Gray? He was a dumb thug. He had nothing to contribute to society. If the cops didn't kill him, somebody else would have."  His life might not have been much, but it's the only one he had and he didn't deserve to lose it just because some cop decided to "teach him a lesson".
There's a possibility that maybe he would have discovered The Flying Spaghetti Monster in prison, got his life straightened out, maybe written wonderful poetry or created an outreach to get kids out of crime or done something else worthwhile with his life.   But leaving that aside, giving the cops a pass on this because Freddie Gray was a deadbeat loser gives them a pass on this culture of entitlement and non-accountability they've created.

If you give the cops a pass for killing a loser like Freddie Gray, you're also giving them a pass for trying to cover up the death of Robert Dziekanski. You're giving this guy a pass for kicking a completely compliant citizen right in the face.



If you give them a pass for accidentally killing Freddie Gray, you're giving them a pass for everything else they do.

 -k
Just last week, a 15 year old black bully threw a pen at an 18 year old he'd been picking on regularly. The 18 year old, being fed up with this, plunged a switchblade deep into his bully, killing him, and seriously injuring another classmate.  Why do "black lives matter" only when the police are trying to do their job?
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2017, 11:19:55 pm »
So what's your point here? Police should be above the law because some kid stabbed another kid who had been bullying him?  I don't follow the logic.

 -k
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Offline JBG

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2017, 01:25:34 am »
So what's your point here? Police should be above the law because some kid stabbed another kid who had been bullying him?  I don't follow the logic.

 -k
I'm saying that if police and in this case teachers were allowed to do their job a lot of this garbage woudln't happen.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2017, 02:03:51 am »
I'm saying that if police and in this case teachers were allowed to do their job a lot of this garbage woudln't happen.

I can see possibly teachers having some effect in this scenario if they were aware of it. I don't see how you are bringing in the police or BLM.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2017, 06:29:45 am »
I don't see a connection either.  And not sure what being allowed to do their jobs means either.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2017, 09:10:45 am »
I'm saying that if police and in this case teachers were allowed to do their job a lot of this garbage woudln't happen.

Well, in the Freddie Gray incident, their job was simply to get him to jail. They couldn't even do that right.

Are you suggesting there was some other job they were supposed to perform, and were prevented from doing?

 -k
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Should More Murder Suspects Die During Arrests?
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2017, 03:02:55 pm »
From another thread:

I agree with all of this. 

And that's the one complaint I have about the Black Lives Matter stance on the issue... this is actually a problem that's far more complicated than "they hate us cuz we black".  That's such an easy argument to dismiss. People look at the number of non-black victims, and they look at the number of black cops caught participating in this violence, and they think "BLM is wrong. BLM is full of it."

BLM isn't wrong, BLM is just too hung up on one aspect of the issue to talk about the real problem.  The real problem isn't that cops are racists who hate blacks. Police violence against black victims is a major outcome of the problem, but racism isn't the root cause of it.  The root cause is that cops have created a culture where they're not accountable.   

Let's not forget something here. When BLM talks about how many Blacks are gunned down by police they act like these people did not, for the most part, deserve to be gunned down by police - but the evidence doesn't support that. There was a black comedian once, maybe Richard Prior, who said he once thought it was tragic about all the Black men in prison until he visited a prison. Then he was like "Thank God for prison!"

Most of the people gunned down by police, black brown and white, were violent scumbags who were armed and dangerous and who resisted arrest.

Quote
It bothers me when people take the stance that "why should I care what happened to Freddie Gray? He was a dumb thug. He had nothing to contribute to society. If the cops didn't kill him, somebody else would have."

The reason nothing much happened there is that the narrative was "Racist cops murdered Black man" and yet two of the people charged, including the driver, were Black. Given the existing narrative the jury was trying to understand why the prosecution thought a black man would give another black man a 'rough ride' because he was Black. The same with ordinary citizens. The same with Eric Garner. I like this case because it better illustrates my point. He wasn't attacked because he was Black. The supervising sergeant was a Black woman. He was attacked because police training says "Do as I say or I use force". There is limited patience for arguing with people, even minor criminals over piddling stuff like selling loose cigarettes. It's very much a "Obey me or you're on your face on the sidewalk" kind of attitude.  Yes, I know that he died because of his own asthma and bad heart, not choking, but if this had happened in say, the UK, the police would not have felt the need to tackle him and get him to the ground. They'd have spent a lot more time talking to him and then issued a ticket. North American police need to lose the "I'm the boss" attitude in most minor cases.

As for me, I find it harder to feel sorry for Freddy Gray than for the poor schmucks who were gunned down watching cowboy music in Vegas last night. He was, at least to some degree, the author of his own misfortune.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum