Author Topic: Immigration policy  (Read 199 times)

Offline SirJohn

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Immigration policy
« on: March 01, 2017, 02:58:57 pm »
My views on immigration haven't really changed in 35 years, since I was working as a security guard and had a lot of immigants living in my building and working with me. I wondered why they were in Canada.

I remember when security guards finally signed up with a union to improve lousy pay, no benefits, etc. The company locked us out and brought in a whole bunch of new security guards, most of them immigrants who would work for almost nothing and didn't care about the working conditions. Bringing in low skilled immigrants lowers wages for lower skilled Canadians, and only helps big companies who want cheap labour.

Since then the number of foreign born people in Canada has grown by an enormous degree, to the point where they outnumber Canadians in some cities, and their numbers continue to grow. I like Canada. In fact, I liked it as it was twenty or thirty years ago. I don't want it changed to suit a bunch of damned foreigners.

If we must have immigration, they should be self-supporting, and they should all make a commitment to assimilate, a commitment to embrace our culture and our values. If they can't or won't do that they shouldn't come here. If they break a law or can't support themselves, they should leave.

Too many immigrants are criminals. Oh, I know we don't keep official statistics, but I can see it in the media when there are street killings and when pimps and drug dealers are named and shown. I can see it in the wanted posters the police put out. I know damn well the street gangs are full of people whose first language is not of this continent. It's ridiculous that we can't just deport these people. We should make the path to citizenship harder, and longer and make it easier to deport people before they get there.

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Online Moonlight Graham

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 07:25:26 pm »
Thing is immigration doesn't breed the crime, it's their level of poverty. There's lots of great immigrants.  Whether you're white 10th generation Canadian or 3rd world immigrant, poverty level is a strong predictor of crime When you take in refugees from poor countries like Somalia or Rwanda etc. because their life is threatened there, they come over often with very little wealth.  Then they might have to live in community housing or low-income neighbourhoods, they may not be highly educated, and some can turn to crime, and their life might still suck so they turn to drugs to cope, and some people they meet in their neighboorhood are into drugs & crime & they get involved in that stuff with them.

Very similar reason why, ie: African-Americans in many parts have high crime rates.  It's not their skin colour or religion etc it's that they're poor.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 07:32:26 pm »
Thing is immigration doesn't breed the crime, it's their level of poverty. There's lots of great immigrants.  Whether you're white 10th generation Canadian or 3rd world immigrant, poverty level is a strong predictor of crime When you take in refugees from poor countries like Somalia or Rwanda etc. because their life is threatened there, they come over often with very little wealth.  Then they might have to live in community housing or low-income neighbourhoods, they may not be highly educated, and some can turn to crime, and their life might still suck so they turn to drugs to cope, and some people they meet in their neighboorhood are into drugs & crime & they get involved in that stuff with them.

Very similar reason why, ie: African-Americans in many parts have high crime rates.  It's not their skin colour or religion etc it's that they're poor.

Then we should either not take in refugees or take in a lot fewer so they can be properly set up, educated and given a skill. If Canada wants to help world refugees we could accomplish far more by giving money to places like Jordan and Lebanon and Turkey where there are vast camps for refugees than we can by taking them in here and putting them on welfare.

Offline Peter F

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2017, 07:37:49 pm »
Geez. thats a real shame that you don't like it. I think its fine.  I know a lady who works for a cleaning contractor. The ownership changed and to be kept on she needed to accept lower wages. She accepted because she needs the pay and she is a low skilled worker.  I don't think she should be blamed and vilified for accepting lower wages. I think the vilification and blame belongs to her boss who would not have kept her on if she refused.   
 You thought, as a striking low skilled person, that the only cost involved was you'd go without pay for a while. You were wrong. Thats not the fault of the people who took the employment right out from under you. The fault belongs with the managers who actually hired them to undermine and defeat the strike and probably pay them less to boot.  I know its surprising when the folks with the money play for keeps. But you blame the scabs.

   Bringing in lower skilled folks doe's indeed have a adverse effect on low skilled workers wages. But then, in your system, Self-supporting immigrants will most definitely have a depressive effect on low skilled wages. I suspect you know this. If so then you complaint against low wages is mere cover for what really bugs your arse.  The world isn't as it was 30-40 years ago. Things have changed. You don't like that. You think immigrants made change happen. And your are very very wrong.


   
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2017, 09:44:26 pm »
   Bringing in lower skilled folks doe's indeed have a adverse effect on low skilled workers wages. But then, in your system, Self-supporting immigrants will most definitely have a depressive effect on low skilled wages. I suspect you know this. If so then you complaint against low wages is mere cover for what really bugs your arse.  The world isn't as it was 30-40 years ago. Things have changed. You don't like that. You think immigrants made change happen. And your are very very wrong.

The problem with people who think of themselves as progressives, is they often find it impossible to discuss anything in a logical, rational manner. They need to work a righteous condemnation in of the person they're arguing with, after all. And if they didn't say anything the progressive can actually disagree with - as in yes bringing in lots of low skill workers depresses wages - well then, simply come up with the 'hidden agenda' which actually motivates the person you're arguing with. There you go! Now you can work up that self-righteousness into a level where you can stroke your own ego by showing how much better you are as a person!

So, never mind the actual argument. Instead focus on reading between the lines to discern my nefarious evil motives instead! Straw men burn so well, after all.

Here's a clue, junior. I don't have any need to cover up my motivations. I say what I mean, so stop trying to figure out what my secret motivation is because I don''t have any.

Offline Peter F

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 11:25:24 pm »
But it isn't about depressed wages for the non skilled. You said you don't like how things are now. You liked how things were 30-40 years ago. You have blamed immigration for how things have changed. Scabs and people working for less have been around since the ice ages. It isn't something new because immigrants. Your argument is an obvious straw man.
"Never take on the role of management"
-- C.A.W. Shop Steward's manual.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 12:14:22 am »
The problem with people who think of themselves as progressives, is they often find it impossible to discuss anything in a logical, rational manner. They need to work a righteous condemnation in of the person they're arguing with, after all.

That has to be the most hilarious comment I have read yet.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 06:30:20 am »
Just out of curiosity, do you think women should be in the workforce? Because coincidentally 30-40 years ago there was an explosion of women entering the workforce. What effect do you think that had on wages?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 02:49:34 pm »
But it isn't about depressed wages for the non skilled. You said you don't like how things are now. You liked how things were 30-40 years ago. You have blamed immigration for how things have changed. Scabs and people working for less have been around since the ice ages. It isn't something new because immigrants. Your argument is an obvious straw man.

I gave several reasons for why the current immigration system is failing. Yes, I liked things the way they were before, when we had no street gangs, for example, when we didn't have drive-by shootings every week, when you could walk down the street in the middle of the city without running into homeless people. But what I said, essentially, was I have no desire to see Canada changed/altered to resemble that of the third world cultures our immigrants originate in.

But the importation of tens of thousands of low skill workers is something I've been complaining about since, well, I was low skilled. It helps banks and big business but harms lower skilled workers in the same way as much of the Temporary Foreign Worker program damages both low skilled and higher skilled workers by depressing the job market and what companies have to pay to get employees.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2017, 02:52:25 pm »
Just out of curiosity, do you think women should be in the workforce? Because coincidentally 30-40 years ago there was an explosion of women entering the workforce. What effect do you think that had on wages?

I think it obviously depressed wages and had a negative impact on families. It also had the affect of changing the negative choice of women in ways that perhaps was not intended by those who campaigned for womens rights. Ie., instead of women not having the choice of going out and working they now largely don't have the choice of staying home.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 02:58:51 pm »
You know that statistically your city is safer than the good old days, right?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2017, 06:26:47 pm »
You know that statistically your city is safer than the good old days, right?

I doubt that. We came close to setting an all-time record for murders last year, in addition to an all-time record for shootings. Most, apparently, coming from the 'immigrant community'.

But to clarify, I'm not nostalgic for the 50s (before my time) or even the 60s. I don't find today terrible. What I don't want is to see us looking like Germany or France or Sweden, with a large, sullen mass of foreigners in our midst who despise us because our ways are not their ways.

You know, the guy who has been cutting my hair for about the last twenty years is a Lebanese immigrant. You couldn't ask for a better immigrant. He's adapted to Canada, started a business, works hard, and is raising his kids as Canadians. But then... he's Christian. Give me 80,000 more guys like him instead of 40,000 Syrians and I won't complain.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:30:11 pm by SirJohn »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2017, 11:29:38 pm »
I think it obviously depressed wages and had a negative impact on families. It also had the affect of changing the negative choice of women in ways that perhaps was not intended by those who campaigned for womens rights. Ie., instead of women not having the choice of going out and working they now largely don't have the choice of staying home.

Well, for someone like me, staying home was never a choice.   If I couldn't go out and earn a living wage I have no idea what my life would be like.

But the importation of tens of thousands of low skill workers is something I've been complaining about since, well, I was low skilled. It helps banks and big business but harms lower skilled workers in the same way as much of the Temporary Foreign Worker program damages both low skilled and higher skilled workers by depressing the job market and what companies have to pay to get employees.

Before joining the Republicans, Abraham Lincoln was a member of the Free Soil Party, a political movement that opposed slavery based not (exclusively) on moral grounds but rather because they viewed slavery as an assault on the wages of laborers. So this train of thought is at the very least 170 years old, and in my opinion still valid. The TFW program was certainly exploited to tilt the labor market in favor of employers. 

But I'm not sure that all of the immigrants should be just assumed to fall under the heading of unskilled labor.  When my dad worked at Nortel, the senior engineer in his department was an older gentleman from the Middle East. I don't know which country exactly, but dad thought he was great and they sometimes went on business trips together. I met him several times, and he was tremendously nice. I don't mention this to suggest that dad's old coworker is typical of Middle Eastern immigrants, but just to point out that some people coming from the region may have valuable skills. There are... or there used to be, at least... some good colleges in the Muslim world, probably built by well-intentioned dictators trying to push their countries forcefully in to the 20th century.

But to clarify, I'm not nostalgic for the 50s (before my time) or even the 60s. I don't find today terrible. What I don't want is to see us looking like Germany or France or Sweden, with a large, sullen mass of foreigners in our midst who despise us because our ways are not their ways.

One thing I recall reading in regard to Sweden is that their immigrants have been so great in number and so overwhelmingly young males that the national gender balance in the late teens and young adult age bracket is now on the order of 133 males per 100 females.   China, after decades of the one-child policy and preference for male offspring, has a similar gender imbalance through all age brackets, and a variety of social problems have resulted from it.  Sweden is on a path toward disaster if they continue with such idiocy.

In regard to Germany, their big problem is that young men from the "Maghreb" countries file bogus refugee claims to come to Germany, live in Germany while their claims are processed, and refuse to leave Germany after their claims are rejected.   Germany can't even deport them... their home countries refused to take them back.

You know, the guy who has been cutting my hair for about the last twenty years is a Lebanese immigrant. You couldn't ask for a better immigrant. He's adapted to Canada, started a business, works hard, and is raising his kids as Canadians. But then... he's Christian. Give me 80,000 more guys like him instead of 40,000 Syrians and I won't complain.

I remember there being a hair salon in Rideau Centre owned by a Muslim family.  Well, I don't know for a fact that they were Muslims, but male visitors appeared to be taken to one side of the shop by a male stylist, while female visitors went to the other side with a female stylist... I always assumed that was a Muslim thing. I've seen lots of other Muslim owned businesses as well... restaurants and shawarma stands and "Quality Zabiha!" foods, and so on... and I'm sure there are plenty of other Muslim entrepreneurs that don't have a sign on their shop that declares "hey everybody! Muslim business here!"  I've worked with Muslims in my age group who I assume were either first-generation Canadians, or born outside Canada and well-integrated.  Nothing in my personal experience agrees with the notion that Muslims who come to Canada end up as poorly-integrated unemployable deadbeats who hate everybody.  I'm sure that there are some portion who do fit that description, but I see no reason to assume Muslims in general are worse than the average newcomer in that respect.   Now, you've mentioned Ottawa has issues with Somalis in particular. Perhaps Somalis who end up in Canada are often refugees, as opposed to economic immigrants who come here with employable skills?

 -k

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2017, 12:14:02 pm »
Well, for someone like me, staying home was never a choice.   If I couldn't go out and earn a living wage I have no idea what my life would be like.

I honestly have no answer to the question about whether women are better off than they were. I guess the answer is yes and no. Some are, some aren't. My mom used to talk about the 'glory days' in the 50s when she and the other mothers would take their kids to the park and picnic and basically have the day together, almost every day then get ready for their husbands to come home so they could party (no TV no video no games, MUCH socializing). It didn't sound horrible. But for some energetic and brilliant women it was extremely confining. It's good those women can now have careers. But let's not forget, the majority of women do not have careers. They have jobs, just like most men, jobs they'd just as soon not have to get up and go out in the cold to every winter, but which they have no choice because in today's economy one salary is rarely enough to get by on. Not to mention women no longer leave their dad's house for one with their husband in their early twenties. A lot of those women I have spoken to would much rather be home with kids than working at some crummy, unsatisfying job.

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The TFW program was certainly exploited to tilt the labor market in favor of employers.

There's no getting around the law of supply and demand.

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But I'm not sure that all of the immigrants should be just assumed to fall under the heading of unskilled labor.

I never suggested all of them do. But clearly, too many do. We don't need statistics to see this because we run into them all the time - although the statistics on the deteriorating economic success of immigrants is clear. One interesting aspect of the US system is that economic immigrants already have job offers or actual jobs when they get here, unlike ours. That might be something we want to look at changing.

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There are... or there used to be, at least... some good colleges in the Muslim world, probably built by well-intentioned dictators trying to push their countries forcefully in to the 20th century.

My understanding is there are actually NO good colleges in the Muslim world. And what colleges they have focus their energy and pride on learning more about Islam. All those glittering buildings in the gulf are designed by westerners. Their oil infrastructure is maintained by westerners. Most of their professionals are westerners. I would expect them to hire a lot more Arabs if there were really good Arabs to be hired.

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In regard to Germany, their big problem is that young men from the "Maghreb" countries file bogus refugee claims to come to Germany, live in Germany while their claims are processed, and refuse to leave Germany after their claims are rejected.   Germany can't even deport them... their home countries refused to take them back.

Most of the immigrants crossing our borders illegally right now appear to be from this same region, as well as a little further south, Somalia, Nigeria and Sudan.

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I remember there being a hair salon in Rideau Centre owned by a Muslim family.

I wasn't mentioning him merely because he was economically successful but because I've spoken to him often in the last twenty years and he has made an honest effort to raise his kids as Canadians and to involve himself in Canadian society beyond the Lebanese community. My next door neighbor, meanwhile, is Canadian born, but I've never seen a non-Arab go into his house (and he has a lot of visitors) and all the women wear Arab robes and head scarves, including his wife. He makes sure his kids speak Arabic and learn about 'home' and takes them back frequently, sometimes for months at a time so they won't lose their culture. Which is what his parents did with him...

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Now, you've mentioned Ottawa has issues with Somalis in particular. Perhaps Somalis who end up in Canada are often refugees, as opposed to economic immigrants who come here with employable skills?

They also come from a society which has been at war forever, with no real government, industry or school system, leading a hardscrabble existence where you take anything you can because nobody will give you a thing. There is little sense of morality about a dog eat dog world, and when they come here they find themselves in paradise, making extensive use of every social welfare advantage they can, regularly getting their food at food banks and their clothes at the Salvation Army - regardless of whether they can afford their own. In my old building it was well known that every family claimed multiple kids, and if by chance an inspector called to visit they would simply borrow the extras from relatives or friends. Crime is also clearly a byproduct of where they came from, as they congregate in male only gangs (naturally, since they don't speak English on arrival and young Somali girls are not allowed out with boys), get into trouble, and escalate into violence.

But this was easily foreseen, and few of them are actual refugees as opposed to economic migrants. Canada needs to be a lot more careful about who it takes in as a refugee, since that's a virtual guarantee of citizenship. And it needs to find a way to deport people a lot faster.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:17:23 pm by SirJohn »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Immigration policy
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2017, 01:38:54 pm »
I honestly have no answer to the question about whether women are better off than they were. I guess the answer is yes and no. Some are, some aren't. My mom used to talk about the 'glory days' in the 50s when she and the other mothers would take their kids to the park and picnic and basically have the day together, almost every day then get ready for their husbands to come home so they could party (no TV no video no games, MUCH socializing). It didn't sound horrible. But for some energetic and brilliant women it was extremely confining. It's good those women can now have careers. But let's not forget, the majority of women do not have careers. They have jobs, just like most men, jobs they'd just as soon not have to get up and go out in the cold to every winter, but which they have no choice because in today's economy one salary is rarely enough to get by on. Not to mention women no longer leave their dad's house for one with their husband in their early twenties. A lot of those women I have spoken to would much rather be home with kids than working at some crummy, unsatisfying job.

Sure, I like my job, but if money just magically appeared in my bank account, I'd probably be doing something different with my life. 

Independence is a big deal for me. The idea of being financially dependent on a man to take care of me is pretty terrifying... it would be terrifying for me even if I were heterosexual.

For some lucky few, their work might be a source of fulfillment... for many more, it's a means of survival, and for an increasing number, work is barely even that.


Leaving aside the question of whether women find their jobs fulfilling... let's also consider something else that's changed since this idealized world of the olden days.

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women no longer leave their dad's house for one with their husband in their early twenties

Few men in their early twenties are able to support themselves financially, let alone a wife and a child. While current Baby-Boomer thinking is that "kids these days don't know how to get out and work... when I was your age, blah blah blah etc" that's not the case. For young people entering the job market, a high-paying job isn't easy to find, a home and even rent are very expensive, and most young people don't have enough spare money to look support a non-working spouse, even if they aren't paying off student loans. People are getting married later and having kids later, and in large measure it's because they don't feel they have the financial stability to do those things earlier in life.

 -k