Author Topic: Conservative Party leadership race  (Read 3422 times)

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Offline Blueblood

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 12:23:43 pm »
I don't think the Conservative party had anyone remotely fiscally conservative in it either. Perhaps the Reform party did at one time.

Mulroney et al had negotiated a free trade agreement which opened up the USA market to us.  The reform party would chide Paul Martin for not cutting enough.  People become fiscally conservative when the bond vultures are in play.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2017, 09:42:10 am »
The problem with this sort of idea is it leads right back to them becoming the Progressive Conservatives, a party which differentiated not one single whit from the Liberal Party of Canada other than in the colour of its campaign literature.

They could certainly differentiate themselves from the Liberals based on fiscal policy.  On the one hand you complain that the media and their political opponents focus on "identity politics" and it distracts everyone from the fiscal message... on the other you complain that without the "identity politics" element in their platform there'd be nothing to differentiate them from their opponents.


Another problem is it leaves completely unrepresented, vast numbers of Canadians who might not be members of the alt-right, but definitely have a few quibbles about aspects of multisexual mutual respect, total abortion rights up to the 9th month of gestation, and embracing mind altering drugs for all. We're not talking a fringe here, but at least a quarter or a third or close to half of the population, depending on the question.

"have a few quibbles about aspects of multisexual mutual respect"   ...what does that even mean?  Nobody is telling you to marry a dude. If you have "quibbles" about that, the solution is fairly straightforward.  If rednecks and old-people and bigots aren't comfortable... so what?  Their comfort-level isn't important. Lots of rednecks and old-people and bigots were unhappy when segregation was ended in the US as well.

Abortion on demand up to 9 months is a red herring that only exists in the minds of pro-life fanatics. Nobody gets to that stage of pregnancy and just changes their mind on a whim.

Another problem is that the number of people with enlightened progressive outlooks on these subjects who are also even remotely fiscally conservative is vanishingly small. The Progressive Conservative party had ZERO conservatives in it when it finally died. The progressive wing had completely taken over because they assumed the moral imperative that progressives generally do, and shut out anyone who disagreed, even slightly, as a 'dinosaur.'

I reject the premise that having fiscally conservative policy means accepting socially conservative policy along with it. There's no ideological reason for the two to be linked. A lot of people think it's contradictory that the same people who want "small government" and "personal accountability" are also the people who think the government needs to be involved in controlling what people can smoke or what they do in their bedroom.

To the 70% of the population which didn't like them?
Btw can you show me where they made niqabs a campaign issue? It seemed to me that every time the issue came up in the media it was because the Liberals or NDP brought it up, or the press did. I never saw Harper speak on it unless he was asked by the media

I'm part of the 70% of the population that doesn't like niquabs. I don't just not like them, I hate them. I think it's disgusting that some people feel that women should wear a bag over their head to go out in public. But the thing is, that's completely irrelevant. A woman can wear a bag on her head, or high-waisted acid-wash jeans, or a Hooters uniform, or a pancho and a sombrero, or a chicken-suit, or whatever the **** she wants... it's really not an issue for public policy.

And putting this into your platform is, like the barbaric practices snitch line or "values screening", less an issue in meaningful policy, and more an exercise in branding.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2017, 11:37:28 am »
"have a few quibbles about aspects of multisexual mutual respect"   ...what does that even mean?  Nobody is telling you to marry a dude. If you have "quibbles" about that, the solution is fairly straightforward.  If rednecks and old-people and bigots aren't comfortable... so what?

You have this habit, Kimmy, of assuming all retrograde social views are attributable to old people and rural rednecks. I can tell you that's total bullshit. I spent most of the time working with people a generation younger than I was, people in their early twenties, and anti-gay feeling was a lot higher in them than any of the seniors I know, particularly among women come to think of it. And it's not pensioners out beating up gays in parks, you know.

It's not a few people who think the government stepping in to force everyone to let confused transgendered people into women's locker rooms, or make it illegal to not call them by their chosen pronoun is loony, it's the majority. It's not a rare few old doddering seniors half a step from the grave who would like there to be some rules on abortion, you know, like those fascists in Sweden and Norway and France have, its the majority of the population. And your 'who gives a **** what they say attitude' is a flat out contradiction of how democracy works.

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I reject the premise that having fiscally conservative policy means accepting socially conservative policy along with it. There's no ideological reason for the two to be linked.

Reject it all you want. The linkage is there, nonetheless. I've been following politics since I was a teenager and would go to the HoC to watch Diefenbaker spar with Trudeau Senior. Progressives, for the most part, don't give a **** about the budget. In fact, they consider it immoral to care about what something costs, when they're 'doing good'. They tend to sneer at those who worry about what things cost, or running up debts. It's the traditionalists who care, and a big chunk of those traditionalists also look askance at some of the progressives social views.

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A lot of people think it's contradictory that the same people who want "small government" and "personal accountability" are also the people who think the government needs to be involved in controlling what people can smoke or what they do in their bedroom.

How would anyone know what's going on in a bedroom? That's not what they care about. They care about what goes on in their schools, their churches, and their streets, to say nothing of swimming pool locker rooms and hospitals. As for smokers. I'm fine with potheads, as long as they surrender their driving licenses and aren't allowed jobs where their mistakes could cause harm to others.

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I'm part of the 70% of the population that doesn't like niquabs. I don't just not like them, I hate them. I think it's disgusting that some people feel that women should wear a bag over their head to go out in public. But the thing is, that's completely irrelevant. A woman can wear a bag on her head, or high-waisted acid-wash jeans, or a Hooters uniform, or a pancho and a sombrero, or a chicken-suit, or whatever the **** she wants... it's really not an issue for public policy.

Banning it might not be, discouraging it and the attitudes which go with it, should be.
A piece in an article I read today said that 90% of Canadians, in a recent poll, said they feel that in order to be truly Canadian you have to adopt Canadian customs and traditions. Which means 90% of Canadians reject those wearing things like this as not being truly Canadian. In democracy, government policy is, or should be a reflection of the will of the people.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2017, 01:25:02 pm »
Progressives, for the most part, don't give a **** about the budget. In fact, they consider it immoral to care about what something costs, when they're 'doing good'. They tend to sneer at those who worry about what things cost, or running up debts.

Quite the contrary, it is the "traditionalists" who don't give a **** about the budget. When it comes to the toys they want, they consider it immoral to care about what something costs, when they're 'doing war', etc. The proof is in the debt, over 75% of Canada's national debt was run up by parties with "conservative" in their name.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2017, 02:29:49 pm »
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I spent most of the time working with people a generation younger than I was, people in their early twenties, and anti-gay feeling was a lot higher in them than any of the seniors I know, particularly among women come to think of it.

This is demonstrably false.  Your anecdotal "evidence" simply doesn't match up with reality.   The rest of your post is equally as absurd.

“Disapproval of same sex marriage is common to the oldest (30 per cent), the less wealthy ($20,000 to $40,000 a year, 33 per cent of whom oppose), in Alberta (33 per cent), the least educated (31 per cent) and, especially, among Conservatives (41 per cent),” a Forum release notes.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadians-still-support-same-sex-marriage-ten-years-in-but-even-more-of-us-are-coming-around-poll

Age / Gender
                              18-34     35-44    45-54     55-64     65+     Male     Female
Sample       1221     241      178        204        283        315       685       536
Approve       70        75        78          66           66         59          67         72
Disapprove   22       17        15          27           25         30          25         19
Don't know    8         8           7           8             9          11           8           9

« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 02:32:13 pm by the_squid »
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2017, 03:10:01 pm »
You have this habit, Kimmy, of assuming all retrograde social views are attributable to old people and rural rednecks.
He's right. There's plenty of young people who act like old people and rural rednecks.

Offline JMT

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2017, 04:46:08 pm »
I live with rural rednecks.  She's most certainly right about their views, to be sure.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2017, 05:00:22 pm »
Quite the contrary, it is the "traditionalists" who don't give a **** about the budget. When it comes to the toys they want, they consider it immoral to care about what something costs, when they're 'doing war', etc. The proof is in the debt, over 75% of Canada's national debt was run up by parties with "conservative" in their name.

This is one of those 'alternate facts' that progressives love so much. They continue to blame Mulroney for the inherited debt he got from Trudeau which soared under stagflation, where inflation was in double digits. I'm not sure why they feel the middle of a deep recession, with unemployment in double digits  would have been the best time for a huge slash to government spending, while at the same time they insisted on Harper initiating a huge economic incentive program, but then progressives never do pay much attention to reality.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2017, 05:03:36 pm »
This is demonstrably false.  Your anecdotal "evidence" simply doesn't match up with reality.   The rest of your post is equally as absurd.

Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say that seniors weren't unhappy with ideas about same sex marriage. I said it was wrong to make the assumption those views were confined to seniors. I could also say the anti-gay feeling of some of the younger people in their twenties I talked with was way more hostile than what I got from older people, who tended to simply wrinkle their noses in distaste as opposed to making loud proclamations of violence towards anyone who tried to touch them that I sometimes heard from some of the younger people. Also, in my experience, calling each other 'queer' or 'fag' is a common insult among young men.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 05:05:53 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2017, 05:16:11 pm »
I live with rural rednecks.  She's most certainly right about their views, to be sure.

I am a rural redneck, and we have just as much right to an opinion and to be represented as anyone else..

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2017, 05:50:22 pm »
I am a rural redneck, and we have just as much right to an opinion and to be represented as anyone else..
Nobody said you can't have an opinion. You don't get to dictate that others have to respect your opinions.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2017, 06:40:15 pm »
This is one of those 'alternate facts' that progressives love so much. They continue to blame Mulroney for the inherited debt he got from Trudeau which soared under stagflation

Sorry, but you are the one with 'alternative facts'. The interest rates were significantly higher under Trudeau than Mulroney, and Harper had sub 1% interest rates. Yes, Trudeau was a bad financial manager. Mulroney was far worse, and cause the most damage. Harper was the absolute worst, but lucked out with the low interest rates to only come in second place in the damage category.

Offline JMT

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2017, 07:30:14 pm »
I am a rural redneck, and we have just as much right to an opinion and to be represented as anyone else..

Opinions are like....you know the rest.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2017, 07:35:06 pm »
I am a rural redneck, and we have just as much right to an opinion and to be represented as anyone else..

But as you said, these are losing issues at election time, and the Conservatives would be better off staying away from them at election time.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Conservative Party leadership race
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2017, 07:53:51 pm »
Nobody said you can't have an opinion. You don't get to dictate that others have to respect your opinions.

 But I do get carte Blanche to call people out for assuming rednecks are second class citizens.  And I do get to call hypocrisy when people who want diversity yet in the same breath trash rednecks.