Author Topic: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?  (Read 669 times)

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Offline JMT

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2017, 07:44:27 pm »
Great discussion - lets just keep it civil. 

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2018, 07:44:14 am »

Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a ****-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right.  That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.

If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog!  No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?


 -k
https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/

What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ?   According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that.  Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.

What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?

Offline Rue

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2018, 03:30:01 pm »
As a Jew I disagree with anyone Jews included calling all Muslims or any identified group names that incite violence and hatred against that group. I also believe we all have the right to question and challenge any or all beliefs and if someone hides behind their religion to justify their terrorist or extremist beliefs they get called out on it. There are extremist Muslims preaching terrorism and hatred then claiming it's anti Muslim to challenge them.

NO ONE should use their religion to justify hateful beliefs.

That said calling out a Mullah for what he says in a sermon may be perfectly legitimate.

I would be interested for you to pint out what words were challenged, in which context they were challenged, how they unfairly smeared all Muslims. If they did that in the name of defending Jews Rom Muslim anti Jewish hatred they clearly have enabled you with a good way to point out the defects in their exercise and defeat any benevolent motive they may gave had. It's why I reject the JDL. They engage in the very extremist exercises they preach against and it's why they are a very fringe group that has never had legitimate standing in the Jewish community and is condemned by Bhai Broth and the ADL no different than any other extremist hate groups. I appreciate you called out Islamic extremism. I call out all extremism and in this case Jewish extremism if it unfairly stereotyped all Muslims.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2018, 06:58:57 pm »
As a Jew I disagree with anyone Jews included calling all Muslims or any identified group names that incite violence and hatred against that group. I also believe we all have the right to question and challenge any or all beliefs and if someone hides behind their religion to justify their terrorist or extremist beliefs they get called out on it. There are extremist Muslims preaching terrorism and hatred then claiming it's anti Muslim to challenge them.

NO ONE should use their religion to justify hateful beliefs.

That said calling out a Mullah for what he says in a sermon may be perfectly legitimate.

I agree with all of this.

Quote
I would be interested for you to pint out what words were challenged, in which context they were challenged, how they unfairly smeared all Muslims. If they did that in the name of defending Jews Rom Muslim anti Jewish hatred they clearly have enabled you with a good way to point out the defects in their exercise and defeat any benevolent motive they may gave had. It's why I reject the JDL. They engage in the very extremist exercises they preach against and it's why they are a very fringe group that has never had legitimate standing in the Jewish community and is condemned by Bhai Broth and the ADL no different than any other extremist hate groups. I appreciate you called out Islamic extremism. I call out all extremism and in this case Jewish extremism if it unfairly stereotyped all Muslims.
You seem to be referencing something else in the thread....

I posted something about Rebel Media.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2018, 04:01:57 am »
https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/

What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ?   According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that.  Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.

What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?

I'm certainly not surprised to find out that some wing-nut got his news from a fringe site like Rebel Media.

And I think that people have been increasingly seeking out fringe media because they no longer trust traditional media to present the whole story.   Some people have begun to believe, perhaps justifiably, that mainstream media are giving a biased picture. We've discussed that in this thread, and many other times over many years.


Angertainment?  I'd just call it propaganda.   They're following the Fox News-Breitbart model of making money peddling propaganda to people who are thirsty to hear their biases confirmed.  I doubt anybody at The Rebel gave a **** about Marissa Shen two weeks ago, but I imagine they've probably posthumously sainted her now that a Syrian refugee has been charged with her murder, because all of a sudden she's convenient to a narrative that they're eager to peddle to an audience that is just frothing at the mouth for that kind of story.  Which is pretty appalling.  But how different is it from the way in which Reese Fallon has been turned into a martyr for a political cause by more allegedly respectable news outlets?

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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2018, 06:31:24 am »
1. Angertainment?  I'd just call it propaganda.   They're following the Fox News-Breitbart model of making money peddling propaganda to people who are thirsty to hear their biases confirmed.   

2. But how different is it from the way in which Reese Fallon has been turned into a martyr for a political cause by more allegedly respectable news outlets?

 -k

1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose.  There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.

2.  Which political cause ?  Gun control ?  Well, the question is whether she has been turned or whether people actually believe that gun control is the right thing to do.  Rebel Media is a company, trying to get attention.  I think people who are 'using' the Danforth shooting may actually be trying to improve things however misguided you think they are.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2018, 11:30:16 am »
1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose.  There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.

2.  Which political cause ?  Gun control ?  Well, the question is whether she has been turned or whether people actually believe that gun control is the right thing to do.  Rebel Media is a company, trying to get attention.  I think people who are 'using' the Danforth shooting may actually be trying to improve things however misguided you think they are.

1.  I'm not sure anything Ezra Levant has been involved with has ever made money... from the Western Standard to Sun TV to Rebel Media. He's perpetually begging his subscribers for donations so that they can "keep fighting".   The one thing all his career endeavors, from his early political aspirations to his present-day publishing efforts, have in common is a desire to promote right-wing ideology. He's an unabashed shill for right-wing parties at the federal and provincial level.

2. People who are paranoid about violent immigrants may actually want to make things better too, regardless how misguided they are.   

I haven't done a count, but I am sure that there have been a lot more stories about Reese Fallon's murder than about Marissa Shen's murder.  One is a political talking point, the other is just a tragedy.

In the US, the murder of Mollie Tibbetts was a national news item for weeks.  Another Iowa college girl, Celia Barquin Arozamena,  was just murdered... but it's not going to become a national political talking point, because this time an American has been charged with the murder.

Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters.  I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on.  Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments.  That's where I'm heading with this.


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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2018, 05:40:51 pm »
1.  I'm not sure anything Ezra Levant has been involved with has ever made money... from the Western Standard to Sun TV to Rebel Media. He's perpetually begging his subscribers for donations so that they can "keep fighting".   The one thing all his career endeavors, from his early political aspirations to his present-day publishing efforts, have in common is a desire to promote right-wing ideology. He's an unabashed shill for right-wing parties at the federal and provincial level.

I think he's making money now.

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2. People who are paranoid about violent immigrants may actually want to make things better too, regardless how misguided they are.   

Rebel Media does not want to solve problems, they want to make them and profit off it.   The paranoid and the extremely paranoid are wrong - the end.  We waste our political capital pandering to those ridiculous arguments.  If we want to have an argument about immigration then let's have one and move on.  There are other matters that need oxygen and we never discuss things like:

- Democratic reform
- Improving services
- Reducing costs


Quote
I haven't done a count, but I am sure that there have been a lot more stories about Reese Fallon's murder than about Marissa Shen's murder.  One is a political talking point, the other is just a tragedy.

I have heard more about Shen in my newsfeed.  My newsfeed is 90% downtown Toronto Liberals and they aren't talking about Reese Fallon.

Quote
In the US, the murder of Mollie Tibbetts was a national news item for weeks.  Another Iowa college girl, Celia Barquin Arozamena,  was just murdered... but it's not going to become a national political talking point, because this time an American has been charged with the murder.

Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters.  I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on.  Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments.  That's where I'm heading with this.


 -k

I don't think any one single murder should make the national news unless there's something remarkable about it.  A Mexican killing someone... who cares.  Americans kill each other for sport and swear at you if you point it out. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2018, 06:00:15 pm »
https://north99.org/2018/09/05/breaking-news-fredricton-shooter-got-his-news-from-rebel-media/

What about if you run a poll that puts out the idea that the media is suppressing names of suspects because they are Muslim ?   According to Canadaland Rebel Media did that.  Turns out that they found out that the shooter was a white man who got his news from The Rebel.

What do you call media that is built to cause conflict, and provide - not information - but angertainment to lazy selfish readers?

You have to take stories from Rebel Media with a grain of salt, because they spin things.  But i still agree with Kimmy that they report stories sometimes that most of the MSM won't, thing many people would probably be interested to read and things we deserve to know.

Not saying Rebel Media is a wonderful news outlet, but they have their place, and I'd rather have them around than not.  If some dude gets super angry over certain issues and kills people via hate crime and was a reader of the Rebel, that's not the Rebel's fault, that's all on the killer.  As long as The Rebel isn't calling for violence themselves they aren't responsible in any way.

I have a friend who works quite high up with CBSA.  A while ago they told me they had (allegedly) arrested a Syrian who had **** a woman in Canada, and it was all hush-hush so the media wouldn't get a hold of it because of the obvious firestorm it would cause.  I never heard about anything like that in the news so I guess it worked.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2018, 06:09:50 pm »
1. You are making an elementary error here: propaganda doesn't make money, it's generated at a loss to serve a higher purpose.  There is a market for angertainment, to salve people who don't like to be challenged.

Why can't propaganda make money?  I don't think Ezra is in it for the money, he's a crusader, & he has a business model for something he seems to truly believe in and there's a market amongst people who believe the same things he does.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2018, 06:11:01 pm »
Why can't propaganda make money?

It can. Just ask the owner of FOX news. Ask Breitbart or Alex Jones.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2018, 06:13:23 pm »
Some news items matter more to Republicans and Rebel Media and their supporters. Other news items matter more to Toronto city council and Toronto Star and their supporters.  I am struggling with the idea of how objective any media source can be, because they all make subjective decisions about which stories deserve coverage, which don't, how much attention each story needs, and so on.  Any news outlet we view is the result of some sort of filtering process, and that filtering process is based on subjective decisions and value judgments.  That's where I'm heading with this.

All media outlets have bias.  It's impossible to get away from it.  Some are just worse than other I think, some meddle a narrative to convince people of a certain view, while some at least try to be more objective even if unconscious bias makes that hard or impossible.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2018, 07:33:33 pm »
Why can't propaganda make money?

I supposed it could but its purpose is to spread a message first and foremost, apart from concerns about profitability.  The Soviet Union funded street newspapers in America that were neither profitable nor good propaganda.

Quote
  I don't think Ezra is in it for the money, he's a crusader, & he has a business model for something he seems to truly believe in and there's a market amongst people who believe the same things he does.

COUGH... he is well documented as pretty much scamming people with his site... raising money through donations because the commies and Islams are comin'

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2018, 07:33:52 pm »
I suppose it could but its purpose is to spread a message first and foremost, apart from concerns about profitability.  The Soviet Union funded street newspapers in America that were neither profitable nor good propaganda.

COUGH... he is well documented as pretty much scamming people with his site... raising money through donations because the commies and Islams are comin'

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2018, 07:37:50 pm »
It can. Just ask the owner of FOX news. Ask Breitbart or Alex Jones.

They are money makers and good at it.  They may believe in the **** they sell but it's still a money operation.