Author Topic: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?  (Read 204 times)

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2017, 09:15:38 am »
So you don't feel there's any need for a discussion on whether it's appropriate for adult men to be put into the same school classes as adolescent girls, or whether a week suspension is an appropriate punishment for someone who stuffed his hand down a girls pants and squeezed her genitals?
Absolutely those are valid discussions. That however is not what Goldie dear is doing.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2017, 09:36:03 am »
Absolutely those are valid discussions. That however is not what Goldie dear is doing.

I agree.  And if mainstream media weren't scared to death to even touch the topic, maybe we could have that discussion.

Instead, by vacating the field and leaving it to Ezra Levant and friends, this fear-mongering alt-right spin is the only public discourse on the issue.   It fuels the impression that the mainstream media is hiding things and undermines trust and feeds viewership of Ezra's crappy website.

 -k

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2017, 09:58:27 am »
No, but I think Imam's preaching about death to Jews should be, but strangely I don't see the same concern from some for things like that.

Preaching about death to Jews is a direct threat of violence to a group of people.  That's certainly illegal, and doesn't even need hate speech laws.
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Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2017, 10:04:46 am »
And so far there is no attempt to put any legal teeth behind it. But a motion to recognize its existence isn't a bad idea. Lets not to be afraid to identify xenophobia.

I think "Islamophobia" is a bit of a murky word.  Sometimes people use it to refer to blanket condemnation against Islam, while others use it to  refer to blanket condemnation against all Muslims.  That's a huge difference.  One is a set of ideas (a religion), and one is a group of people.  There should be nothing wrong with condemning a religion or ideology if you don't like it, but we shouldn't be using fear and hate to all people who follow it (even if it's ok to criticize those people).
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Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2017, 11:20:48 am »
Another example, I recently saw a story involving a sexual assault by a Syrian refugee at a New Brunswick school. The story was covered by "The Rebel Media". They did their homework, obtained documents from school staff through FOI access requests, verified that there was a real incident, a real irate parent, and that the Syrian was punished with a one week suspension.  http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_syrian_refugee_school_sex_attack

Now, personally I think Ezra Levant is a shit-head, and the Rebel Media is a scummy and slimy operation. But the thing is, nobody else is reporting on this sort of thing. Ezra claims his shitty website is the only news outfit in Canada with the balls to report on trouble involving the Syrian refugees, and unfortunately he's right.  That kind of thing contributes to the growing mistrust of the mainstream media.

If I look at other media outlets, I can see happy human interest stories about the Syrian refugees. Syrian refugees attend their very first hockey game! Syrian refugees attend Rememberance Day ceremonies. Syrian refugees help family find lost dog!  No story about Syrian refugees having problems integrating with highschool students. If you're only reporting positive news about something and ignoring the negative, isn't that called propaganda?

Kimmy you've hit on an extremely important subject.  Yes, it's absolutely propaganda. I've thought about this myself a lot, not just in regards to syrian refugees but all issues covered in the media.  They say the pen is mightier than the sword, and so the biggest war throughout history I think is the war of ideas, and news media and ALL media are important players (if not the most important) in this war.  We've seen the war of ideas for a very long time, communism vs capitalism propaganda in the media since the 1800's for example.  I find that virtually all news media outlets have an ideological bias that's easy to spot.  Some sites are more overt in their bias of what they choose to report (ie: FOX News, The Guardian), but the most important and far more subtle bias is in what outlets choose NOT to report, like you were saying.  For instance, the CBC News doesn't have a lot of op-ed reporting online compared to other outlets, but there's so many stories that may support rightwing narratives that you'll find reported on The National Post or Rebel Media (as you say) that you won't find reported on the CBC (or other left-leaning outlets).  Editors and journalists, no matter how unbiased they claim to be or even honestly think they are in their reporting, virtually all have an ideological bias and agenda in their reporting.  And we see this "objective reporting" thrown out the window come election time when newspapers all give their "endorsement" of their candidate of choice.  Virtually all media outlets are pushing their particular ideology in their reporting and are key players in the war of ideas.

I'm not even sure if there's anything wrong with that or not, since as long as we have a large variety of news outlets with varying ideological biases then as long as we look at them all, we're able to capture a large picture of all the news happening.  For instance, even though the National Post or Rebel Media are usually to the right of many of my ideological beliefs, I'll still look at them daily so that I can also find the news that the rest of the media in the country aren't reporting.  The problem with news outlets becoming more extreme and entrenched in ideological reporting is that many people don't do this, and prefer to remain in their own bubble & stick with the media that confirm their own biases (both on the right or the left) and then demonize those outlets that oppose their bias. How many people on the left demonize FOX News and Breitbart, and how many ppl on the right demonize The Daily Show and the CBC?
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Offline Blueblood

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2017, 11:27:06 am »
So you don't feel there's any need for a discussion on whether it's appropriate for adult men to be put into the same school classes as adolescent girls, or whether a week suspension is an appropriate punishment for someone who stuffed his hand down a girls pants and squeezed her genitals?

 -k

The sad thing was there wasn't too much outrage over buddy at the west Edmonton mall doing sex acts there.  I think the media felt they had to report it as it was so blatant in a public area. 

I don't see any changes coming due to lack of outrage.  It's funny as there is more outrage at leitch' comments then kids getting attacked.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2017, 02:27:49 pm »
Yes, sexual assault is a big problem in society

Almost one in three girls in Grade 9 stated that “someone brushed up against me in a sexual way” or “someone touched, grabbed, or pinched me in a sexual way” 54% of Canadian girls under the age of 16 have experienced some form of unwanted sexual attention.  24% have experience rape or coercive sex and 17% have experienced incest

Nobody is reporting these cases,

Maybe because the figures are made up? 17% have experienced incest? How is she defining incest? If a girl's little brother peeped a her is that incest? Unwanted sexual attention? What does that even mean? The fat kid asked me out?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2017, 02:37:40 pm »
I think "Islamophobia" is a bit of a murky word.  Sometimes people use it to refer to blanket condemnation against Islam, while others use it to  refer to blanket condemnation against all Muslims.  That's a huge difference.  One is a set of ideas (a religion), and one is a group of people.  There should be nothing wrong with condemning a religion or ideology if you don't like it, but we shouldn't be using fear and hate to all people who follow it (even if it's ok to criticize those people).

But if you believe the ideology is wrong aren't those who follow it wrong? I've been posting on this subject for years. I normally write nothing about Muslims in Canada, as in what to do with them. I don't think that is an issue. We have freedom of religion, and people can do and wear and believe what they want. I don't wish to change that in order to put additional pressure on Muslims to reform.

That being said I believe that Islam is a dumb ideology, and I don't wish to see its adherents growing in number in Canada. I can see no logical reason why we continue to import tens of thousands of its followers every year given the economic and social arguments against doing so. Nevertheless, and despite making free use of statistics and evidence, people still refer to what I write as xenophobia and Islamophobia.

Offline Moonlight Graham

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 05:59:56 pm »
But if you believe the ideology is wrong aren't those who follow it wrong? I've been posting on this subject for years. I normally write nothing about Muslims in Canada, as in what to do with them. I don't think that is an issue. We have freedom of religion, and people can do and wear and believe what they want. I don't wish to change that in order to put additional pressure on Muslims to reform.

That being said I believe that Islam is a dumb ideology, and I don't wish to see its adherents growing in number in Canada. I can see no logical reason why we continue to import tens of thousands of its followers every year given the economic and social arguments against doing so. Nevertheless, and despite making free use of statistics and evidence, people still refer to what I write as xenophobia and Islamophobia.

Islam is an extremely broad ideology, with infinite variants from person to person.  To blanket all followers of Islam is like blanketing all followers of Christianity even though there's so many different sects with different interpretations and beliefs and each individual believer follows their religion in their own way.  Like Christians, most Muslims are pretty moderate in their beliefs.  They eat lots of good food with their families on their religious holidays like we do.  I've met a bunch of Muslims the last few years who would become my friends.  They're very normal people like you and I.  They don't demand ie: gender segregation in society etc.  They don't think non-believers are infidels.  Some females I know don't even wear a hijab or any head-covering. 

Most of them seem pretty lazy in their religious beliefs like most Christians.  I'd imagine the % of Muslims that pray to Mecca 5 times a day is similar as how many Christians go to church every Sunday.  Most Christians don't follow the Bible very closely in their day-to-day lives, and most Muslims don't follow the Koran very closely.  And like Christians, a lot of Muslims don't believe in the crazy stuff in their holy book either.  Ya there's dedicated Muslims just like there's dedicated Christians.  Most non-Muslims who talk about Islam or Muslims don't even know what the hell they're talking about beyond what they read in the news.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:07:46 pm by Moonlight Graham »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 07:07:56 pm »
Islam is an extremely broad ideology, with infinite variants from person to person.

It is far more narrow than Christianity, and even the different sects don't disagree on the basics, including Sharia law.
Quote
Most of them seem pretty lazy in their religious beliefs like most Christians.  I'd imagine the % of Muslims that pray to Mecca 5 times a day is similar as how many Christians go to church every Sunday.  Most Christians don't follow the Bible very closely in their day-to-day lives, and most Muslims don't follow the Koran very closely.  And like Christians, a lot of Muslims don't believe in the crazy stuff in their holy book either.  Ya there's dedicated Muslims just like there's dedicated Christians.  Most non-Muslims who talk about Islam or Muslims don't even know what the hell they're talking about beyond what they read in the news.

You are making the same mistake so many other western people make in assuming that because you have an ingrained belief in a secular society that others do too. Because you don't take religion seriously, then neither do others. The biggest clue of how wrong you are is that the number of Muslim women in Canada who wear the hijab or some other religious garment every single day of their lives everywhere they go has risen to over 60%. I put it to you that logically, if Muslims were as lackadaisical and unobservant as secular western Christians that would not be the case.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2017, 07:19:22 pm »
The biggest clue of how wrong you are is that the number of Muslim women in Canada who wear the hijab or some other religious garment every single day of their lives everywhere they go has risen to over 60%.

I suggest that is the biggest clue of how wrong you are. Go out and ask those women why they wear the hijab. Is it religious compliance, is it cultural, is it fashion, or is it to identify and show their pride in their own background especially as it has come under attack from many quarters in recent years. Go to the university campuses and take a close look at those women wearing hijab's and tell me if the rest of their dress and mannerisms is in compliance with these religious teachings you often tell us about. Many of them are also wearing tight sweaters, skinny jeans, high heels, and are engaging with their fellow classmates (males as well as female) in very open manner. I would say the hijab is much more a statement of their heritage, a statement of fashion, and a statement of themselves more than it is some symbol of subservience.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2017, 07:31:26 pm »
Maybe because the figures are made up? 17% have experienced incest? How is she defining incest? If a girl's little brother peeped a her is that incest? Unwanted sexual attention? What does that even mean? The fat kid asked me out?
I find it interesting that you ask these questions here, but when talking about the rampant rape problem in Sweden, you're don't even remotely ask as many questions. They're not the wrong questions. It's good that you're asking the questions. But you don't always do it and it's interesting to note when you dig deeper and when you don't.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2017, 08:34:34 pm »
I suggest that is the biggest clue of how wrong you are. Go out and ask those women why they wear the hijab. Is it religious compliance, is it cultural, is it fashion, or is it to identify and show their pride in their own background especially as it has come under attack from many quarters in recent years.

It is religious. If you clam it is cultural, then it is a deliberate rejection of Canada and its culture in favour of the culture and values of the places they consider their real homes. It is a proclamation to everyone they encounter "I am not one of you. I reject you and your culture and values."

In fact it is both of those things.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2017, 08:37:37 pm »
I find it interesting that you ask these questions here, but when talking about the rampant rape problem in Sweden, you're don't even remotely ask as many questions. They're not the wrong questions. It's good that you're asking the questions. But you don't always do it and it's interesting to note when you dig deeper and when you don't.

I ask the questions because the statistics do not make sense to me. On the other hand, I find absolutely nothing unlikely about the thought that a bunch of Muslim men from north africa and the middle east, upon seeing how women dress and act in Sweden, would  think they are all whores and prostitutes and thus can be done with whatever the man wants.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: Canadian Islamaphobia or Free Speech?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 08:39:29 pm »
I don't think that's unique to Muslims.