Author Topic: Incomes Collapsing in the US  (Read 2313 times)

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Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2017, 12:18:33 pm »
And why do you think that people live longer?  Do you think that funding their survival might have something to do with it?

Private industry has been much more effective at finding survival and increasing standard of living than centralized government.  Our poor here have a better standard of living than other places which leads me to believe poor is subjective. 

Offline JMT

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2017, 02:20:33 pm »
Private industry has been much more effective at finding survival and increasing standard of living than centralized government.  Our poor here have a better standard of living than other places which leads me to believe poor is subjective.

That's a false contrast.  Our standard of living increased in an environment of private industry with heavy government influence and regulation.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2017, 02:47:27 pm »
I think we can at least agree that not everybody's getting richer and not everybody should be happy to see the rich getting richer while half the country is making less (in real income) than they were 20 years ago.  I'd be interested to see equivalent statistics for Canada... my hunch is that it's not much different here.

I don't have those statistics, but it is noteworthy that according to the Paliamentary Budget officer income inequality in Canada also rose until about 2006, and has been falling since then.

Regardless of what measure of income you use (market, total or after-tax) or which threshold you use (top 10 per cent, five per cent, one per cent, 0.1 per cent, 0.01 per cent) you get the same answer: top-end income shares peaked in 2006 and have been declining since then.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/stephen-gordon-despite-what-the-attack-ads-say-incomes-at-the-very-top-have-fallen-since-harper-took-power

Mr. Stanford and Mr. Brennan rank the Harper government second-last on income inequality, based on the average share of income held by the top 1 per cent of Canadians between 2006 and 2012. But Statistics Canada reported that the top 1 per cent’s share peaked at 12.1 per cent in 2006, the year Mr. Harper took office, and declined thereafter to reach 10.3 per cent in 2012.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/judge-harpers-economic-record-by-the-hand-he-was-dealt/article25867267/

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Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2017, 07:47:33 pm »
That's a false contrast.  Our standard of living increased in an environment of private industry with heavy government influence and regulation.

It's not a false contrast.  Our standard of living would be more so without govt influence and regulation.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 07:53:56 pm »
I don't have those statistics, but it is noteworthy that according to the Paliamentary Budget officer income inequality in Canada also rose until about 2006, and has been falling since then.

Regardless of what measure of income you use (market, total or after-tax) or which threshold you use (top 10 per cent, five per cent, one per cent, 0.1 per cent, 0.01 per cent) you get the same answer: top-end income shares peaked in 2006 and have been declining since then.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/stephen-gordon-despite-what-the-attack-ads-say-incomes-at-the-very-top-have-fallen-since-harper-took-power

Mr. Stanford and Mr. Brennan rank the Harper government second-last on income inequality, based on the average share of income held by the top 1 per cent of Canadians between 2006 and 2012. But Statistics Canada reported that the top 1 per cent’s share peaked at 12.1 per cent in 2006, the year Mr. Harper took office, and declined thereafter to reach 10.3 per cent in 2012.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/judge-harpers-economic-record-by-the-hand-he-was-dealt/article25867267/


Just to help visualize that "collapse"




Offline JMT

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2017, 08:22:20 pm »
It's not a false contrast.  Our standard of living would be more so without govt influence and regulation.

That's not a provable assertion.  It also doesn't seem to jive with things that have actually happened.  Government regulation and by extension the 'welfare state' isn't something that has hampered our progress.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 10:33:13 pm »
That's not a provable assertion.  It also doesn't seem to jive with things that have actually happened.  Government regulation and by extension the 'welfare state' isn't something that has hampered our progress.

Compared to growth during the gilded age I would say that's up for debate.  Ireland has a low corporate tax and has grown rapidly and on top of that the USA is planning an overhaul on taxes to Jump start growth.

Offline JMT

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2017, 08:17:50 am »
Compared to growth during the gilded age I would say that's up for debate.  Ireland has a low corporate tax and has grown rapidly and on top of that the USA is planning an overhaul on taxes to Jump start growth.

Ireland also has significant government regulation and a cradle to grave welfare state.

Offline Blueblood

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2017, 11:43:26 am »
Ireland also has significant government regulation and a cradle to grave welfare state.

Yet less than other countries due to its low corporate tax rate and growth reflected in that.

The Dow is up almost 2000 points based on confidence that regulations will be cut and taxes cut.  Growth is best achieved when government reverts as close to its main purpose which is to be a neutral arbiter in disputes and provide an environment that facilitates growth.

Offline JMT

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2017, 01:29:08 pm »
The Dow is up almost 2000 points based on confidence that regulations will be cut and taxes cut. 

The Dow has been on its way up for a while now.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2017, 04:27:17 pm »
I don't have those statistics, but it is noteworthy that according to the Paliamentary Budget officer income inequality in Canada also rose until about 2006, and has been falling since then.


Let me help you by giving you the statistics from CANSIM 204-0002, and the top 1%.

2006: $188,500
2014: $227,100

Unfortunately your allegation is not supported by the facts. There was a slight drop in 2009 from $202,600 to $198,000 but that was quickly made up and soared ever since.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:36:58 pm by ?Impact »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2017, 06:01:46 pm »

Let me help you by giving you the statistics from CANSIM 204-0002, and the top 1%.

2006: $188,500
2014: $227,100

Unfortunately your allegation is not supported by the facts. There was a slight drop in 2009 from $202,600 to $198,000 but that was quickly made up and soared ever since.

My 'allegation' was accompanied by documented fact. Yours not so much.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2017, 06:02:50 pm »
Statistics Canada data isn't a documented fact?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2017, 06:10:38 pm »
Statistics Canada data isn't a documented fact?

A. His link doesn't work.
B. Stating, in isolation, that the average income of the top 1% had increased between 2006-2014 is largely irrelevant to the discussion.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Incomes Collapsing in the US
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2017, 10:43:10 pm »
My 'allegation' was accompanied by documented fact. Yours not so much.

I don't think you can get a better documented fact than Statistics Canada in this country. Sorry the link didn't work, hopefully it is fixed now. A very simple google search on the CANSIM table I referenced would have taken you to it. I don't understand why you think it is irrelevant to the discussion, when you yourself introduced that topic: Regardless of what measure of income you use (market, total or after-tax) or which threshold you use (top 10 per cent, five per cent, one per cent, 0.1 per cent, 0.01 per cent) you get the same answer: top-end income shares peaked in 2006 and have been declining since then.


I picked one of the measures you suggested (total, 1%) and saw that it in fact did not peak in 2006 but continued to increase yearly with the exception of 2009 where it decreased only marginally and then started to soar back up.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:45:15 pm by ?Impact »